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Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

bbc.com

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Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#51

Post by throwaway2048 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #26
everdev wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the journalists present this story as Russia's voluntary step towards isolating itself from the global internet. I am not sure why. Some potential benefits to Russia: 1. Thwart cyber attacks 2. Control information 3. Halt foreign online payments There are of course downsides, but I think the original premise was security in the event of war / aggression.

> 1. Thwart cyber attacks By whom? State actors can just launch attacks from computers that have both a Russian internet link and a link up to a internet providing satellite, no?

true but things like DDOS are a lot harder when you are forced to rely on nodes within the country that internal police can shut down.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#52

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

ScottFree wrote: post #49
52-6F-62 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a gross generalization if I ever heard one. Both exist.

Your faith in your religion is touching. You keep believing, no matter the evidence.

Billion-dollar companies with competent management pay large amounts of money to newsgathering agencies and companies for accurate information with which they can make business decisions on. I trust the objectivity of journalism when I pay for it directly and the news is the product - rather than most online journalism where (in practice, at least from the soulless business position) the audience is the product for advertisers which necessarily means compromising journalism.

Nothing is free from bias - that much is true; that doesn't mean we should adopt your too-cynical attitude.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#53

Post by everdev »

shadowgovt wrote: post #46
everdev wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in Egypt in 2011 the government famously shut down the internet The news is that they can now isolate their Internet domestically and run a Russia-only WWW. They presumably could have shut it off completely from Day 1.

Are there services Russians use daily that would not be available on a Russia only WWW? The utility of the web isn't the protocols it technology employed; it's the content.

I would assume any foreign website (Twitter, PayPal, Facebook, etc.) would need to be co-located within Russia to continue to operate. Even then, it would be cutoff from updating or querying any foreign databases.

I can imagine online banking with foreign entities would become a problem as well.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#54

Post by omneity »

Scarbutt wrote: post #42
omneity wrote: post #29

What infrastructure needs to be replicated "locally" for a country to unplug itself yet still have a functioning Internet simulacrum?

Nothing that they don't already have in place with some configuration adjustments. The Internet is just a lot of interconnected routers.

I'm thinking BGP, DNS, IP subnets allocations and all the low level stuff. Also SSL authorities etc.

I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you'd need to roll, I bet it would make for an interesting article :D

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#55

Post by staticautomatic »

everdev wrote: post #40
3pt14159 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Thwart cyber attacks By whom? State actors can just launch attacks from computers that have both a Russian internet link and a link up to a internet providing satellite, no?

No security is full proof, but they call it "hardening the target" when you reduce your attack surface.

I think the word you're looking for is "foolproof"

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#56

Post by Nasrudith »

everdev wrote: post #40
3pt14159 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Thwart cyber attacks By whom? State actors can just launch attacks from computers that have both a Russian internet link and a link up to a internet providing satellite, no?

No security is full proof, but they call it "hardening the target" when you reduce your attack surface.

Of course security is an obvious pretense for control.

The way you actually reduce attack surface is to take the critical pieces off of it and minimize the paths to be watched, not the whole system. That would be like ensuring it is possible to close off all of the highways into Washington DC to response time for the three federal branches. If it was actually that damn important they would make and use secure tunnels. The only added benefit is an excuse to shut out protesters.

Not to mention mere independence isn't everything for system functionalities. Going to muscle powered factories to remove logistical dependence on power would be an obviously stupid move for example because the performance is so much worse. It is "selling ceramic knives that cannot be sharpened as never needing it" marketing deception of trying to cast a flaw as a strength.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#57

Post by Nasrudith »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #52
ScottFree wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your faith in your religion is touching. You keep believing, no matter the evidence.

Billion-dollar companies with competent management pay large amounts of money to newsgathering agencies and companies for accurate information with which they can make business decisions on. I trust the objectivity of journalism when I pay for it directly and the news is the product - rather than most online journalism where (in practice, at least from the soulless business position) the audience is the product for a…

The thing to keep in mind is that paying for it is no guarantee that you aren't still also the product even without direct advertising. Incentives are a very messuy business and everything is a signal to someone - regardless of validity. There are no epistemological guarantees period so wariness is always required.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#58

Post by Nasrudith »

mrtksn wrote: post #15

How much Facebook and other tech giants will be affected by a fragmented internet? Is FB still a $600B company if they are prevalent only in the USA, UK and Canada? I wonder if this trend of closed borders limited information circulation could lead to the diminishing of companies that depend on the network effect and rise of the companies with hard tech.

I suspect yes to the first if widespread enough in GDP (frankly in the grand scheme of things they matter less than Italy) and a hard no to the second.

There is no reason to think that "hard tech" (assuming you mean more physical hardware) would benefit as a field they aren't really competitors even in terms of sucking up talent. Isolation wouldn't give them an edge there.

Second as fragments would call for reinventing the wheel locally or possibly copying it to serve an insular market. We have already seen this with Cuban mechanics. They didn't become "the Detroit of the third world" producing cheaper cars for other nations, or even a divergent tech path for transit that was better in some way. They just essentially practiced at the art of antique automobile necromancy. Small players with adjacent bigger markets can innovate and scale up. Small players in small markets stagnate. The "small and local serves you better" is more meme than fact. People really want their parochial corner to be just as good but it hasn't worked out that way and stays small for several good reasons, and "choice" isn't one of them.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#59

Post by Nasrudith »

madiathomas wrote: post #11

It was the next logical step for Russia after they built their own GPS and their alternative to the World Bank, the BRICS bank. Their biggest enemy has proven that they cannot be trusted and they are the ones who invented the Internet. Anytime they have a disagreement with a nation, they take their ball and go home. Like what they were doing with Huawei. I won't be surprised if China and India are working on the same…

The way you defeat bullies isn't another bully. Just look at the record of violent revolutions going full circle over and over again. The way you destroy bullies is the same as warrior elites (generic term for nobles, head warriors of tribes, generalismons, generic because it doesn't matter). Make them irrelevant.

Wealthy warrior elites are left with terrible dilemmas with merchants. If they let merchants grow then their position slips (less elite) but the military position stays the same or grows from taxes. If they don't then their holdings become backwards and they weaken, but they retain their hold on power internally. They can try to plunder but that means war and even if successful running out of prey to hunt. Seizing territory spreads them thinner and gives more administrative burden.

Peace is really a terrible weapon of attrition against warrior elites. It forces them to stab themselves with Morton's fork repeatably.

The funny thing is that economic bullies find themselves in the same role, as they either become warrior elite literally (using force for gain) or metaphorically (using their economic clout as a cudgel) vs new challengers who themselves may render them irrelevant if they fail to innovate.

Re: Russia 'successfully tests' its unplugged internet

#60

Post by Nasrudith »

rb808 wrote: post #14
madiathomas wrote: post #11

It was the next logical step for Russia after they built their own GPS and their alternative to the World Bank, the BRICS bank. Their biggest enemy has proven that they cannot be trusted and they are the ones who invented the Internet. Anytime they have a disagreement with a nation, they take their ball and go home. Like what they were doing with Huawei. I won't be surprised if China and India are working on the same…

Of course Russia has had its own version of GPS for decades. Those ICBMs need some way to find their destination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS World Bank has never been important to Russia. You're right the US is dominating financial world right now which most of the world hates and its inevitable for something else to compete.

Really the world bank's role is to be the scapegoat for fiscal misrule as the lender of last resort. They may or may not be "fair" (a subjective standard) and there are legitimate things to disagree with such as assignment of debts from previous regimes but crucially they lack the power to do much. They are judges without ballifs or executioners. They wield no force but saying no to loans and telling others what they think.

If the countries could sustain themselves without credit from them then they have no need to be involved. The worst is essentially snarky comments pointing out that the current management goes against orthodoxy/still hasn't paid them back from 1977. If the country succeeds despite going against their judgement then they just look silly until either the world bank revises their conventional wisdom or they get to say "told ya so!" when the shoe drops.

Austerity may do worse than an open credit pipeline in terms of growth and human impact but there are no guarantees that the creditor wouldn't mess that up as well and solvency is required to function in their role. While nice they literally can't be an infinite credit that never needs paid back fountain.

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