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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#171

Post by bg117 »

throwno wrote: post #164
Isinlor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

Rich to hear Indians feeling entitled to EU immigration when the Indians just happily passed a law against Muslim immigration. Letting poor muslims compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality. It undermines your position of power.

Its good to understand history. India and Pakistan were partitioned based on Religion. Muslims under Jinnah decided that Muslims cannot live in a united country and partitioned United India. Millions were killed during that transition in 1947. Same with Bangladesh in 1906. Things were settled long time back once and partition is a one-time affair. Is it not?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#172

Post by terminaljunkid »

timwaagh wrote: post #11

it's kinda sad european programmers get pushed out of entry level positions by typically more experienced indians willing to work for some premium above indian wage. this ensures programming is not a very well paid job in west europe. europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further putting eu workers at a disadvantage versus indians and russians. which…

I see you have very high opinion about India's engineering education. Being an Indian CSE undergrad student at one of 'top' colleges, I'd say it is crap unless you climb the ladder on your own.

1. Till 10th grade you are not likely to know anything about programming

2. In 11th and 12th there is huge competition for getting into medical / engineering colleges. You study physics - chemistry - mathematics for acing that 'entrance exam'. Very few people try to learn outside syllabus. I did try to learn some C programming & linux stuff out of interest. But somehow happened to study well also and got into my province's #1 or #2 college by everyone's norms.

There it just began.

3. We have 4 years Bachelor of Engineering degree for CS. CSE is most prestigious branch because of relatively high salaries. Every kid who topped the entrance exam in entirely irrelevant subjects (Phy-Chem-Math) ends up taking CSE without any idea or interest about it. Most of your classmates will be such bookworms who just study for exams.

4. Worse, they don't teach considerable amount of CS / Programming in first year. Instead put same physics - chemistry stuff -- pretty much rote learning and scoring good at long-essay-answer exams. They do it saying "students should have interdisciplinary knowledge" etc.. refutable excuses. The purpose just seems to be providing jobs for graduates in chemistry / mathematics.

5. Even if you will get relevant CSE subjects in future, teaching quality is subpar. some teachers don't even know to indent code. In C programming lab exam, I was told not to use command line editor and use gedit because they thought using vim / nano may give different results :D..

Thanks for hearing my complaining here ;-) but we are stuck in a subpar quality system because of high influx of incompetent people into CSE degrees, and job-oriented and rote-learning based mentality prevalent here in every field. I wanted to get into an US university. But costs were prohibitive even to write SAT, and coming from rural area, I didn't have much facilities. There needs to be big change in people's mentality here to see any change.

Also, pardon my English.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#173

Post by k3oni »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #13

It's funny because in France, we are loosing french tech talents to the US.

This could be a direct consequence coming from the import/immigration of talent into the EU. The best will leave once they see change coming and usually salaries and work culture could suffer on such changes. Also being born and raised in East Europe i can say that we don't handle too great a mix with other cultures, as US does for example.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#174

Post by inertiatic »

mk89 wrote: post #159
inertiatic wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! I have trouble supporting a child in Greece, with a gross household income of around 50k. I most certainly do not lead a luxurious life. I shudder to think how this would work out in Western Europe where rents are even higher than the ~500 euro most people pay here for a medium sized apartment.

I think everything is relative. I have met and I know many indians that have a lifestyle that we (Europeans) would never follow or think about. That's probably the "luxury" that the parent comment is talking about. As usual, this is where two cultures tend to diverge. For "them" we live a stressful lifestyle, etc., etc., because we need to make money. For "us", they have a laid back lifestyle that we can't understand…

You are right on that, it's a difference of perspective in a lot of these cases. I personally very well could subsist on bulk prepared, cheaper food, go out or visit family very rarely, never pay for a gym membership or for a music tutor or for dance lessons or for children's activities. But from my point of view that's insane, and those are basic things that you will spend some amount of money once you can afford it on to have a life worth living.

Luxury to myself means luxury goods (status symbols such as cars, phones etc. or even best-in-class functional items with increased cost compared to value-for-money alternatives), frequent travel etc. all of which I can't afford.

I wonder though if this goalpost would move even further if my income ever increased, or this mindset is well, set, from our upbringing.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#175

Post by ben_w »

foepys wrote: post #135
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Yeah, please take me and my family to this magic lala land. You can also survive on the streets with no money. That doesn't mean it's a lifestyle you should aspire to.

I don't know why this being downvoted so much. A family requires a lot more money than being single. Are so many people here single without children that don't know or care about this? Raising children on 30k€ in a city in Western Europe is scratching on the government defined poverty line.

> Raising children on 30k€ in a city in Western Europe is scratching on the government defined poverty line.

What do you base this on? Based on [0], the poverty threshold in Germany is €13.152/year, and Germany is one of the richer EU nations. Even if that’s a working single parent and one child, €30k isn’t scratching the poverty line.

[0] https://m.dw.com/en/germanys-minimum-wage-is-barely-above-th...

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#176

Post by drharby »

Isinlor wrote: post #95
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

I get the impression from your rant that you're dismissing the parents comments core complaint about the adverse impact of increased labor supply on the middle class and then follow on to namecalling. This style of commentary seems beneath HN's aspirational high signal low noise.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#177

Post by ben_w »

huffmsa wrote: post #168
palerdot wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the governments and private corporations (like east India company) supported by the people ... Your comment implies as if bunch of people decided to colonise the entire world outside Europe on their own whims ...

The European governments and private corporations were made up of and supported by private citizens, were they not?

Back then, arguably not. “Who gets to vote” started out as a very small group.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#178

Post by ailideex »

blue_box wrote: post #20
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

Of course, people who come from abroad have some effect on the salaries but I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary. When I talk with my colleagues, most of them are saying that the money that they earn is enough, there is no reason to ask for more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary.

I think it is mainly supply/demand issue.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#179

Post by bumblebee4 »

Isinlor wrote: post #95
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

As an engineer, isn't life in Asia more luxurious because you can easily afford a maid and other amenities? Seriously, what's the benefit of moving into Western Europe?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#180

Post by mcv »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #146
Isinlor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

> But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. If that was the case, birthrates wouldn't be so low in Europe. Free school and healthcare doesn't support your family when rents are higher than ever and fewer people than ever can afford to buy a property to raise a family in.

Low birthrate isn't caused by high rent, but by a highly educated population and an economic system where kids aren't necessary to take care of you when you get old.
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