Downsides to working at a tech giant • Hacker News Board

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#281

Post by CydeWeys » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #249

novok wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse. Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup…

I don’t disagree with the spirit of your post. Large tech companies are paying ridiculous salaries and generally speaking we’re in a period of early-stage capital glut. The point you’ve made — that it makes more sense to just start a company — is directionally correct, but for the most part is a logical fallacy. I hear this from competent, capable people all the time, “I might as well just start my own company rather…

> The real insight here is that it is actually more valuable to found — or be a really early employee at — a successful startup.

Sure, and it's more valuable to be holding a winning lottery jackpot ticket than a year's worth of paychecks.

Problem is, most startups aren't successful, and you have to take the risk into account.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#282

Post by account73466 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #238

account73466 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine this to be true but do you have a source for that information?

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/14/6137473/venture-capital-return... And related. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/030916/buffe...

Thanks for the links! I am aware of the Buffet's bets but I did have a feeling that some VCs can be quite profitable especially the ones which invest in future government contractors and/or future surveillance facilitators.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#283

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

arjie wrote: post #215

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

It's just the reversion-to-the-mean effect described elsewhere[0]. It seems bothersome that on a startup news website run by an incubator, the view is that startups aren't a good idea. However, that's only because HN is now what /r/programming+technology+apple+google was, not what HN was. It's not really a startup news website. So I wouldn't worry too much. The people in startups are probably in real-world groups, an…

The discussion isn't against startups. It's for giving employees more incentives to join startups, as opposed to repeating the same hoary cliches. The tech industry and cost of living have simply changed from a decade ago. Incentives must increase accordingly.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#284

Post by austenallred » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

jarjoura wrote: post #221

For all the startup founders and VCs in this conversation, you are cheap motherf*ckers. When I read that engineers and employees prefer FAANG companies because they pay better, I want to remind you that it wasn't always like this. 10-15 years ago startups paid way better than big tech. Big Tech rewarded you by getting to specialize on problems and working at scale. The reason FB and Google pay well is because when th…

Google and FB were paying less when they were founded than most startups I see today, adjusted for inflation.

The difference is that now Google and FB pay way more. More than startups could ever dream of competing with. Everyone I know at FB or Google is making $225k+, with the average/median being around $300k/yr. Absolutely no way new startups can play ball with those salaries, and FB/GOOG certainly weren’t paying that as they got off the ground.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#285

Post by pm90 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #255

pm90 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Founders should be willing to give a lot more equity to the first employees. I don’t get the logic of not doing this. You want your engineers to feel as if they have ownership in the equity that you’re building. It’s such an easy way to keep engineers engaged and productive that it baffles my mind that it’s not done more widely. I hate working for BigTech. Startups expect too much and compensate very little. The swee…

It's the math again. Go do a spreadsheet and simulate a company as it grows and you see treating your first 10 employees in line with big tech expected value outcomes is a really, really big hit.

I know this is totally super optimistic, but can we change the perspective from

> is a really, really big hit.

to

> really amazing payoff for the early engineers/employees

My very limited understanding of the growth of the SV tech community is that its a generous cycle of people creating wealth, and then using that wealth to fund the next generation of tech. So it seems completely logical for SV founders to want to do more of this.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#286

Post by mmmBacon » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

I worked at 4 startups in my youth. All were formed at the tail end of the dot com crash. Of the 4, 2 outright failed and were totally miserable places to work. At one I even had to work for minimum wage until they realized they violated our exempt status. Of the other 2, one was acquired for peanuts. I got a check for $1200. The last company went public. They had had huge funding (almost $500M) and had had several down rounds. Due to this, management was extremely miserly with stock. My stock was briefly worth $250k until the lockout expired and quickly sank to $120k and got as low as $45k. Looking back on it, I totally wasted my time there.

The pay wasn’t the worst of it, I encountered many tyrants who made things even worse.

Now as an older person I have many business ideas but I am unable to take the risk due to having to support a family. I need to make a certain income to cover expenses. The only way I would join a startup is as a founder and at that I’d have to be able to pay myself enough to keep things going for my family.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#287

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

account73466 wrote: post #282

scarface74 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/14/6137473/venture-capital-return... And related. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/030916/buffe...

Thanks for the links! I am aware of the Buffet's bets but I did have a feeling that some VCs can be quite profitable especially the ones which invest in future government contractors and/or future surveillance facilitators.

The VCs are always profitable - for themselves. They get 20% returns no matter what. Their investors on the hand....

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#288

Post by modwest » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

pjlegato wrote: post #182

modwest wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. You’re also describing a fundamental tension between capitalism and socialism.

Yes, but not in the way I imagine you intended. In capitalism, perhaps 80% of the value you create as an employee is captured by others (see sibling comment.) You can also opt out -- by becoming self employed, by joining a commune or collective, or by becoming a vagrant. In socialism, the percentage of value you create captured by others is nearly 100%, and opting out is illegal -- in many socialist countries, even t…

No, this argument you’ve made is question-begging.

What I was referring to has more to do with the labor theory of value https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

I understand why I got downvoted, it seemed like a political drive-by comment. I should’ve explained what I was referring to in the first place. But this implication that socialism somehow naturally leads to slavery/internment in ways capitalism doesn’t is a canard.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#289

Post by account73466 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #273

pm90 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible comment. "Be patient" is a non-response. You made a comment, and got a very good response as to why your comment is missing nuances that might be the real reason for a change that you're attributing to something else. Especially in a forum like this one with no notifications, Be Patient is basically saying STFU.

In a heated discussion thread we forget that web forums and bulletin boards are not the best place for realtime conversations.

On HN people often do not reply on replies to their comments and it does not mean that they do agree.

It seems like a rather nice thing which helps to avoid many ego-battles.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#290

Post by keithwhor » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #280

keithwhor wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes — some execution is hidden, for sure. I, personally, try to be ultra transparent with the team: here’s our bank account, here are deals in-flight, here are the VCs and founders we’re talking to. The value I aim to provide anybody that works with us is all the things I felt I was missing when I was a startup employee. I wanted to understand how deals happen, what personalities are like, how things work. As we grow…

You are a much better founder than my founder was, and I'm glad you are. My founder was a good business man, kind of slimy, but effective. And definitely not transparent and gave a pretty employee unfriendly options contract. Again, I was an unwise jr and that experience was years ago now. I was also employee ~50, so I don't know if that was early enough to get real warm intros for investments with people I didn't in…

I appreciate the kind words, but trust me, I still have a lot to learn. The most important contributor to our early success so far has been the team, who have supported me in my growth as a founder as much, if not moreso, than I’ve supported them.

Yes — being employee 50 changes the scales a little. You’re a little too far removed from the executive team to have the same level of comfort. We’re still significantly smaller than that, but at my first job I was in the same # range as an employee.

While I didn’t get to build a relationship with the executive team, my boss at the time kept in touch and ended up introducing me to my best friend / confidant in the Toronto ecosystem as a result. So I would still say the network was valuable. :)