Downsides to working at a tech giant • Hacker News Board

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#181

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #177

scarface74 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work at startups because you’ll work with people who have risk profiles that are much more likely to generate outsized returns as a group. This is statistically not true. S&P 500 Index funds have outperformed VC's as a group for any reasonable time period.

You’re making this (single startup) v. (single S&P company). That’s not how it works. Prove yourself at being an adept generalist and you’ll, over time, create access to the most ambitious people and companies.

I’m doing just the opposite. I’m comparing VC funds in the aggregate to stocks in the aggregate using VC funds returns as a proxy for startup returns.

I think that’s fair. By definition you can’t invest in bootstrapped “lifestyle companies” and they rarely have “outsized returns”.

There are a lot of “ambitious people” who have failed that you never hear about.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#182

Post by pjlegato » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

modwest wrote: post #75

zadkey wrote: post #68

It seems like he has found the problem with companies. "Even though these companies pay a lot of money, in real terms, what software is doing in society is creating a lot more value than what they pay you. Google's pure profit per employee is actually $1.6 million per year, after all costs." "If you're in the engineering, product, design, marketing, sort of the builder's side of that organization, you've got to know…

Well said. You’re also describing a fundamental tension between capitalism and socialism.

Yes, but not in the way I imagine you intended. In capitalism, perhaps 80% of the value you create as an employee is captured by others (see sibling comment.) You can also opt out -- by becoming self employed, by joining a commune or collective, or by becoming a vagrant.

In socialism, the percentage of value you create captured by others is nearly 100%, and opting out is illegal -- in many socialist countries, even talking about opting out gets you sent to a "re-education camp."

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#183

Post by jonny_eh » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #100

senordevnyc wrote: post #21

This is such a weird post. Big fan of Garry, but I don't agree with most of this. 1. Just because it turned out that you would have made $200mm doesn't make it a mistake. If anything, that outsized return proves just how rare this kind of outcome is. If you look at the YC startups graduating every year, maybe 1 will ever generate $20mm for an early employee, let alone $200mm. Joining a new startup for that kind of ou…

Thanks for the note! I appreciate the feedback. These things are crazy rare. I didn't do a good job of explaining then how weird this experience was. In the moment it felt like any other startup. Peter was great and well known but not outrageously famous the way he is today. I also didn't do a good job of doing an intro on this idea that tech startups are taking over all of the economy. There are some things that I j…

> I just still think people should consider making things for themselves though.

I've worked for startups and big companies. In both cases you're making something for someone else. Even then, at least at a "Big Company" you can sometimes choose to work on a product that you personally use.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#184

Post by fatnoah » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:57 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #172

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse. Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup…

>The reason why is the math changed.

Very true. Making it even more unbalanced is that a startup exit may not be profitable to non-founders. I spent the first 17 years of my career at 3 different startups. Two were acquired and one is still chugging as a lifestyle business for the founder. The net value of my options (> 1% even after dilution in two of them) amounted to a $2000 capital loss due to there being no money left over after debt and liquidation preferences. I did get $350k payout for one of them since I was an executive.

I recently started at a FANG, where the new grads make cash and stock comparable with my startup exec compensation and it won't take long for them to eclipse it. I'll be making multiples of my previous compensation.

That said, I wouldn't change my path one bit. I learned so much in those startups that I wouldn't have learned anywhere else. I had a level of scope and responsibility that apply to nearly any tech job. It also lets me appreciate the benefits and stability of a large company. When I joined those companies, I was also not even thinking about making bank on an exit. I just wanted to work with nice people and build cool stuff.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#185

Post by sdrinf » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #172

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse. Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup…

I agree with all of the points raised, and share the same experiences. But this one:

> I might as well become a founder and start my own at that point

Great! So, how would you recruit your first 10 employees?

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#186

Post by munchbunny » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

There are two points that I think are very important but usually don't get the time of day in these discussions:

1. Your success is intricately tied to your network. Have you ever met someone who was ready to cut you a $72k check as a recruiting bonus to join a startup? (Referring to Garry Tan's story.) I will bet that the vast majority of people in the world never even came close to that kind of situation. My point isn't that any given individual has no hope of getting there, but rather that if you want to manufacture that situation for yourself, you do it by networking, not really risk taking.

2. Not everyone's priority is their careers. I wholly agree with encouraging young people to take risks, but for a lot of people that's not the right choice. Most people want to build their careers, but not everyone wants to make it personal the way you have to as a founder.

I worked on startups for my entire early career. I met a lot of interesting people, learned more than the equivalent big company career could have taught me, and I regret none of it. However, it also made me realize that the vast majority of startup people are also just grinding away, not necessarily "taking risks." My experiences with startups made me much more wary about working for a startup.

If you want an interesting life that might lead to money/power (but will definitely lead to interesting people and good stories), find an idea you love and start something. If you want a reliable path to lots of money, join a growth stage company or tech giant and grind your ass off.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#187

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #151

minimaxir wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The $200M loss was a cheap way of getting user attention, but hey it worked! Many Hacker News submissions get flagged to death for such tactics alone.

True, but the ones where upvotes defeat flags in the tug-of-war stay afloat, and usually (well, sometimes at least) that's because there's some other substantive aspect to the article. In such cases we eventually notice the titles and change them to stick to the site guidelines—preferably using representative language from the article itself. I've attempted to do that above. In this case the substantive aspect is at…

[deleted]

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#188

Post by sbilstein » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 8:04 PM UTC

The safest risk reward ratio in terms of career development, networking, and financial gain is to work at a startup that is in their explosive growth stage. You will likely get shares valued at some multiple of 100k. Make sure you understand the business and feel confident they will IPO or exit.

The scaling needs, technically or culturally, of a company at this stage are unlikely to be available at a risky early startup that may never see massive growth. At a BigCo, unless you are in infra or deep in the technical stack, many of these scaling problems will have been solved for you.

In terms of networking, you will get to learn from grizzled engineers who were around in the early days, veterans from big companies who have come in to fix the shit that is wrong, and have a front seat to these cultures colliding. Not only that, you'll be surrounded by soon to be angel investors.

I spent one year working at a pre-IPO unicorn and it was highest in ROI for my career as an entrepreneur later and the IPO made me enough cash to not be sweating my rent all the time.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#189

Post by throwaway2048 » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

garry wrote: post #131

thecleaner wrote: post #12

This vlog is more of a cheap advertisement for the "oh work for a startup it's great" nonsense school. I don't really understand why I would work in an environment where the pay is shit and the issued stocks can be re-classified or diluted or just taken away by lay-offs. Makes no sense.

I started here on Hacker News as a software engineer. I learned that I could build software for others, ship it and release it. I did end up taking the venture path, and now help others on that path. The key here is that magic can be created by people, and I'm not that different than a lot of people on this site. I also got very lucky, and I'm thankful for that. Startups are hard, and most fail, and most startup stoc…

I doubt many people have a passion for shipping to customers quickly.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#190

Post by msoad » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 8:07 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #178

Like Garry, I wholeheartedly encourage every engineer to work at a startup for .00x% equity (unless you're employee #1, and you can ask for a whopping 1%). The founders and VCs will have hundreds or thousands times more upside than you (and they'll have preferential shares, etc), but at least you'll be In This Together (in that you're working "together" to try to help the founders+VCs join the Billionaire class -- a…

A friend of mine who's helping a VC firm has told me for the right talent they are doing better these days. Like 10% equity for founding engineer + 200k salary. With those numbers I can totally consider a startup job.