Downsides to working at a tech giant • Hacker News Board

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#271

Post by Roritharr » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

fatnoah wrote: post #184

novok wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse. Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup…

>The reason why is the math changed. Very true. Making it even more unbalanced is that a startup exit may not be profitable to non-founders. I spent the first 17 years of my career at 3 different startups. Two were acquired and one is still chugging as a lifestyle business for the founder. The net value of my options (> 1% even after dilution in two of them) amounted to a $2000 capital loss due to there being no mone…

I'm interested in your transition, how did you go about the move from Startup Exec to working in a FANG?

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#272

Post by novok » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #254

novok wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh. The same person can dig for oil in north dakota, or they can go dig for oil in nebraska. You'll get a lot more oil in dakota (big tech) than you would be getting at nebraska. Go do the best thing you can do right now. Expenses don't matter, the total gross profit is what does.

Except tech is nothing like oil. It's a knowledge based industry and the pace of innovation rapidly keeps breaking barriers to entry. It effectively enables a lot of other industries to move swiftly and get a lot done with fewer resources [0]. A rising tide lifts all boats. Instagram scaled to 30M users with 13 engs [1], and WhatsApp to half a billion with 32 [2]. Oculus was started by a then 17yr old Palmer Luckey […

Yay you're citing lottery winners, the most engineer efficient unicorns in the world, in a lottery that you can only buy 5-8 tickets in for your lifetime.

What I mean by 'go do the best thing you can do now', doesn't exclude working for yourself or starting that company that becomes your biggest thing also.

But if $500k/yr as a staff eng at bigco (north dakota) is your best thing, there is no shame in it. It's doubtful you can reproduce that although working for yourself in 'nebraska'.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#273

Post by Apocryphon » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #256

keithwhor wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I haven’t responded to the math changing is because it’s Christmastime and I’m spending time with family. Some of the responses to my post require a much more thoughtful answer than I can muster while at the gym between meeting family members. Be patient. I’ll respond to the other post if you wait.

This is a terrible comment. "Be patient" is a non-response. You made a comment, and got a very good response as to why your comment is missing nuances that might be the real reason for a change that you're attributing to something else. Especially in a forum like this one with no notifications, Be Patient is basically saying STFU.

In a heated discussion thread we forget that web forums and bulletin boards are not the best place for realtime conversations.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#274

Post by garry » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

bartread wrote: post #260

Hermel wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably confused profits and revenue.

Could be: Google's annual revenue for 2018 was $136.22 billion[1], which yields $1,315,512 revenue per employee. Controlling for employee growth from 2018 to 2019 (they only had 85,050 employees at the end of Q1 2018[2]) and assuming linear growth and revenue earn through the year, that gives an average number of employees of 94,300 over the year (I realise this is an oversimplification), and revenue per employee of…

You're absolutely right — I annualized net revenue which I interpreted as "net" but certainly is not profit. I've corrected this and will put a note about it.

I'm sorry for the mistake. I'll do better next time.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#275

Post by keithwhor » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #267

keithwhor wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree with the spirit of your post. Large tech companies are paying ridiculous salaries and generally speaking we’re in a period of early-stage capital glut. The point you’ve made — that it makes more sense to just start a company — is directionally correct, but for the most part is a logical fallacy. I hear this from competent, capable people all the time, “I might as well just start my own company rather…

TBH the best way to get a full spectrum startup experience is to go start a startup, like many other things in life. Working at a startup, other than maybe a 1-2 year maximum stint to get a taste, isn't really useful because a lot is hidden from you even when you start the angel stage. And if you wanted to do the stint, I would probably do it as 1 year of PMing and 1 year of engineering max. If you really wanted the…

Yes — some execution is hidden, for sure. I, personally, try to be ultra transparent with the team: here’s our bank account, here are deals in-flight, here are the VCs and founders we’re talking to.

The value I aim to provide anybody that works with us is all the things I felt I was missing when I was a startup employee. I wanted to understand how deals happen, what personalities are like, how things work. As we grow I can’t share entirely as much — a piece of minor bad news can hit me pretty hard emotionally and it’s not fair to subject the team to me being upset or a hothead over something that will blow over — but I do try to encourage folks to learn as much as they can.

Even if somebody were to be entirely disinterested in founder-level execution, early employees have a super easy, instant warm introduction to any investor on that company’s cap table downstream. You might not be using that aspect of your startup career yet, but it certainly can help you if you wanted to use it.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#276

Post by praptak » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

A startup won't solve climate change and contributes to another global problem - inequality.

If we want these problem to be solved we should rather encourage people to be active politically and figure out how to tax carbon emissions worldwide and make sure the tide actually raises all boats.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#277

Post by chrshawkes » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

anaisbetts wrote: post #54

gameswithgo wrote: post #30

On the bright side you didn't have to associate with Peter Thiel or Palantir.

Seriously - not earning $200m in blood money by helping the US Government imprison and torture refugees is imho a Bullet Dodged

You realize they use React as well too right? Java and other tech helps them do the same thing.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#278

Post by whiskyant » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

Maybe startups would be more desirable alternatives if they gave RSUs instead of stock options, or at the very least have an exercise period of 7+ years instead of 3 months, or not be forced to pay the cash equivalent of taxes just for exercising...

As it stands now, startups are just places that offer half the salary compared to public companies. Working for half what you could be making is a large ask of almost anyone.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#279

Post by taurath » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:44 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #249

novok wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse. Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup…

I don’t disagree with the spirit of your post. Large tech companies are paying ridiculous salaries and generally speaking we’re in a period of early-stage capital glut. The point you’ve made — that it makes more sense to just start a company — is directionally correct, but for the most part is a logical fallacy. I hear this from competent, capable people all the time, “I might as well just start my own company rather…

Most of the time, startup founders will have been successful elsewhere, or else they’d not have the ability to risk enough to do a startup. That’s why one avoids startups run by executives kids who are “creating” a track record.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#280

Post by novok » Mon, Dec 23, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

keithwhor wrote: post #275

novok wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH the best way to get a full spectrum startup experience is to go start a startup, like many other things in life. Working at a startup, other than maybe a 1-2 year maximum stint to get a taste, isn't really useful because a lot is hidden from you even when you start the angel stage. And if you wanted to do the stint, I would probably do it as 1 year of PMing and 1 year of engineering max. If you really wanted the…

Yes — some execution is hidden, for sure. I, personally, try to be ultra transparent with the team: here’s our bank account, here are deals in-flight, here are the VCs and founders we’re talking to. The value I aim to provide anybody that works with us is all the things I felt I was missing when I was a startup employee. I wanted to understand how deals happen, what personalities are like, how things work. As we grow…

You are a much better founder than my founder was, and I'm glad you are. My founder was a good business man, kind of slimy, but effective. And definitely not transparent and gave a pretty employee unfriendly options contract. Again, I was an unwise jr and that experience was years ago now. I was also employee ~50, so I don't know if that was early enough to get real warm intros for investments with people I didn't interact with that much.

TBH the pre-ipo company I went on to next has given me a much better network than the startup I went to as a jr. One coworker direct has started a company that I think will do pretty well, along with a bunch of others who have gone on to VC firms, their own startups and so on.