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Downsides to working at a tech giant

blog.garrytan.com

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Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#261

Post by mc3 »

The question is what is Expectation(Total Wealth) working at tech Giant vs. joining a typical startup (with no crystal ball bias).

Esp. given that most single peeps working at tech Giant can live in a slave box eating supermarket food and save most of their income and invest it. They can probably use their income for leverage build a property investment portfolio, which if the rent covers the mortgage, they will still have savings to invest in stocks.

Now take into account the $10M lifestyle and the $200M lifestyle, and for a hacker who isn't into 1st class flights, balls and cristal (see what I did!) I think 10M would be enough money to retire in a humble house somewhere in suburbia and hack on side project, even with a family to support.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#262

Post by scottlegrand2 »

I've had a simple rule for the past 20 years. If you offer me less than 1% of the startup I'm not interested in working with you because I am a plebe if I accept that offer. It hasn't failed me yet.

OTOH I chose to pursue a PhD in biochemistry rather than be the third member of the Yost group and that led to 3D Studio.

So I will boil my heuristic down to TLA or BigCo. I'd miss out on the next Facebook or Google with such a heuristic but what are the chances I would get an opportunity to join one of those companies at the ground floor in the first place?

in recent years, there was one startup bought out at a modest price for which I might have made epsilon more money being their CTO but it would have come with sleepless nights and anxiety at no additional cost.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#263

Post by garry »

yowlingcat wrote: post #192
keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

If the pessimism in this thread bothers you, imagine how much your woefully out of touch survivorship bias and bothers everyone else in this thread? One of the top comments that responds to your post tells you that the math changed. This is true. The fact that neither you nor Garry talk about the concrete specifics of this means that you're either unaware of it, or worse, intentionally sweeping over it. You really th…

I appreciate this, and am trying to take this to heart.

But it is also possible to survive. And if you do that, you don't merely survive, you thrive— that's what product market fit looks like. I've been lucky to see it dozen of times first hand, and it's nothing short of magical.

When founders and teams pursue something without product market fit, it's a high cost to pay and a terrible outcome for most everyone. This is also absolutely true.

Startups are not for everyone! I appreciate your feedback and it resonates with me.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#264

Post by partyboat1586 »

jarjoura wrote: post #221

For all the startup founders and VCs in this conversation, you are cheap motherf*ckers. When I read that engineers and employees prefer FAANG companies because they pay better, I want to remind you that it wasn't always like this. 10-15 years ago startups paid way better than big tech. Big Tech rewarded you by getting to specialize on problems and working at scale. The reason FB and Google pay well is because when th…

This hits home. I worked at 3 different small startups in my career. The first two failed and I left the last one for finances. I started contracting because it pays better but it's sapping my soul. I loved each one of those startups. I loved the people, the creative freedom and even just the vibe of trust and determination in the office. I loved the parts closer to the end even more because of the thrill of being on the edge. I didn't mind liquidation because I have a good recruiter and I was always ready to get back on the horse.

Now I contract out days for an agency. I estimate predefined tasks and then execute them. I talk nicely and calmly to clients who don't do me the same courtesy. I work only with the technology I have the most experience with and don't have opportunity to try new tech. But I have to pay my rent and I have to start putting money away to eventually get on the property ladder so working at a startup isn't really an option for me any more.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#265

Post by nikki93 »

thecleaner wrote: post #250
nikki93 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of envs that are not abusive. Having your workplace generalized and called abusive on the internet when it's not in real life, definitely feels abusive, however. I've seen people join abusive personal relationships with worse pay than startups, it happens with friendships and marriages everywhere. I've also seen very bad relationships between founders and teams that have caused lots of pain... The onl…

The main question is to ask what can you make out of it as an employee assuming the worst. I know full well that there are several great people working in tech as founders. I also believe that ambitious people who really think they are fantastic at delivering products can and should try the testy waters of startups knowing full well what the true market value is of the skillset that they are building. I would never e…

Yeah this definitely makes sense. I think the startup work you do should build your personal portfolio. Open source (like with an actual open source license like MIT and no weird edge cases) work helps a ton too. I think also being paid in actual cash is actually pretty good and you don't have to make weird money bets.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#266

Post by sabas123 »

garry wrote: post #116
stiray wrote: post #23

I really hate speeches like that. They are always told by one permile (or even less) of people that succeeded. The voice of all those that have lost are never heard. Same as blockchains, there are a few very loud people explaining how easy is to get rich, while those who gave them their money are rarely heard. I would laugh if it wouldnt be sad. An anecdote (just a detail, I am developer for almost 30 years, I know t…

Maybe more poker than a lottery. A lot of luck, but there's still a little bit of skill in there. I appreciate the feedback though. I know this is just one voice of many, but it's also what I experienced. I think it's up to the viewer to decide if my experience is applicable. I think Paul Buchheit said it best: Advice is merely n=1 experience. This was my n=1.

> I appreciate the feedback though. I know this is just one voice of many, but it's also what I experienced. I think it's up to the viewer to decide if my experience is applicable.

How do you feel comfortable spreading your own experiance in a manner that purposefully tries to persuade opinions while you know your experiance is non-generalizable?

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#267

Post by novok »

keithwhor wrote: post #249
novok wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why is the math changed. The gap between startup and tech giant is much larger now than it was in 2010. Also, unless you have insider access and join a very risky angel stage company, the likelihood of getting a good package that makes sense is low, very low. Also public companies have shown to get +3x gains, which can make the math even worse. Example from personal experience that is very lucky in startup…

I don’t disagree with the spirit of your post. Large tech companies are paying ridiculous salaries and generally speaking we’re in a period of early-stage capital glut. The point you’ve made — that it makes more sense to just start a company — is directionally correct, but for the most part is a logical fallacy. I hear this from competent, capable people all the time, “I might as well just start my own company rather…

TBH the best way to get a full spectrum startup experience is to go start a startup, like many other things in life.

Working at a startup, other than maybe a 1-2 year maximum stint to get a taste, isn't really useful because a lot is hidden from you even when you start the angel stage. And if you wanted to do the stint, I would probably do it as 1 year of PMing and 1 year of engineering max. If you really wanted the full spectrum experience just incase, then another year at a pre-ipo growth company, another year at a big tech co and another year at a VC to understand the full spectrum life cycle for 5 years.

As a founder, the demands of doing a startup induces you to learn a lot. It forces you to do that networking and making friends part and you will eventually get a mentor network via all your investment activities that will probably be way better than observing from a distance as an IC. Other founder friends you make and friends made at a co-working space doing similar things would give you a lot better experience and a better network.

I joined a smallish startup that grew big, as evidenced above. I mostly just churned on pushing out a lot of code and that's about it. I was part of helping create that 0 to 1 and all it gave me is a bit better work ethic since so much was hidden from me as a jr. The friend I made there that joined really early didn't gain much more insight than me and now works at big tech with me. I learned a bunch just through observation, but I think a founder mentor network would of taught me stuff a lot sooner, and a lot better.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#268

Post by garry »

pm90 wrote: post #242
novok wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a big reason why I don't start my own company, because I couldn't really live with doing that. My current armchair strategies: * Compete in a way that big tech are not willing to do, which means distributed remote companies. A lot of people don't want to live in $3.5k/month rent SF or other tech centers for various reasons. * What a lot of startups do, but RDF (reality distortion field) over with 'we only hir…

Founders should be willing to give a lot more equity to the first employees. I don’t get the logic of not doing this. You want your engineers to feel as if they have ownership in the equity that you’re building. It’s such an easy way to keep engineers engaged and productive that it baffles my mind that it’s not done more widely. I hate working for BigTech. Startups expect too much and compensate very little. The swee…

We usually encourage folks to give at least 10% of the equity to the first 10 employees. That's what Stripe did and it worked well.

That number is going up over time, so I can report at least a little bit of improvement, though certainly not fast enough.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#269

Post by opportune »

jarjoura wrote: post #221

For all the startup founders and VCs in this conversation, you are cheap motherf*ckers. When I read that engineers and employees prefer FAANG companies because they pay better, I want to remind you that it wasn't always like this. 10-15 years ago startups paid way better than big tech. Big Tech rewarded you by getting to specialize on problems and working at scale. The reason FB and Google pay well is because when th…

Absolutely this.

A lot of startups these days skimp by hiring sub-FAANG SWEs with less than 5 yoe, and it shows in their products. Lack of product maturity, bad engineering (worst horror story I’ve heard recently is Wayfair), resume driven development / over-engineering / cargo culting, huge teams to work on simple features. All so they can hire two middle-skill 22 year olds instead of a skilled 35 year old.

If you’re able to work at FAANG it is just bad financial sense to work at most startups unless you want to play the lottery. If a place offered 40-50hr/week, $250k salary, 15% target bonus AND generous RSUs/options it would be able to compete with FAANG. But not a lot of places do that, and those that do are often the very bubbly ones with uncertain futures

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#270

Post by unnouinceput »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #213

>Working for Microsoft cost me $200 million And not playing the Mega Millions Jackpot lotto cost me $1.6 billion. I had the opportunity to pick the winning numbers, but instead, I didn't even play! What a chump I was. Don't make my mistakes.

Well, if is to use your analogy then you had the opportunity to turn down somebody that gave you free money to play the lottery, because that's what Thiel did to Garry, it gave him a check that covered one year of what Microsoft paid him.
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