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Downsides to working at a tech giant

blog.garrytan.com

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Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#151

Post by dang »

minimaxir wrote: post #92
catalystic wrote: post #70

I feel a lot of the folks here are focusing on the wrong parts here. The $200M loss was a cheap way of getting user attention, but hey it worked! The core of what he was trying to convey was the sooner you get to understand real user / customer problems the better off you'll be in life as an entrepreneur. He stayed away from this in his early days as he opted for stability and that he seems to regret.

> The $200M loss was a cheap way of getting user attention, but hey it worked! Many Hacker News submissions get flagged to death for such tactics alone.

True, but the ones where upvotes defeat flags in the tug-of-war stay afloat, and usually (well, sometimes at least) that's because there's some other substantive aspect to the article. In such cases we eventually notice the titles and change them to stick to the site guidelines—preferably using representative language from the article itself. I've attempted to do that above.

In this case the substantive aspect is at least partly that Garry has had a close relationship with HN over the years. And vice versa.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#152

Post by eaguyhn »

I worked at four startups and gained so much experience at each. Even with the long long hours I really liked it. Three of the four failed - the fourth one eventually succeeded after 15 years and I received about $4,000 for my original shares as employee #3 (I can relate to the point in one comment about being a founder instead of an employee).

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#153

Post by dang »

thecleaner wrote: post #16
lordleft wrote: post #2

The simple truth is that working for the equity of an unproven start-up is a gamble, and statistically unlikely to pay off. And sadly more and more start-ups are undermining access to equity in shady ways. Not that one should never work for a start up on the hopes it breaks big, but we should also never forget that the successes are outliers, by a massive margin. Just understand the trade-offs of your decision and th…

I mean this is really not talked about more frequently. At this point, with all the shady tactics that most startups now pull, it would appear that only an idiot would really want to be swindled this way. Furthermore, this is not something that will go away since with less IPOs actually being successful and a mature tech market, hoarding the most value you can from your company seems to be in vogue these days.

It's the leading response on HN to the topic, so I'd say it's talked about frequently.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#154

Post by geofft »

garry wrote: post #125
geofft wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also self-serving. There simply doesn't exist $200M for every software engineer out of college. But if this guy, a venture capitalist, can get a thousand more people to think they'll win the lottery, invests in all of them, and 999 go bust, he'll still make money on the one startup that succeeds by being in the right place at the right time.

I started learning about startups only after I started reading Hacker News in 2006. I was an engineer for most of my career up until then. Reading Paul Graham's essays changed my life, and it changed the life of thousands of people I've met now known for over 10 years, as an alum, a partner at Y Combinator and now an investor. Guilty, it is self-serving. It's my business. But I also know from direct experience people…

Do you think that every reader of Hacker News can do that? Logistically, how would it work?

I'm not disputing that "people who can make software are capable of building billions of dollars worth of value." Of course that's true. I'm disputing that everyone who makes software can individually capture even hundreds of millions of dollars worth of value.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#155

Post by ignoramous »

zadkey wrote: post #68

It seems like he has found the problem with companies. "Even though these companies pay a lot of money, in real terms, what software is doing in society is creating a lot more value than what they pay you. Google's pure profit per employee is actually $1.6 million per year, after all costs." "If you're in the engineering, product, design, marketing, sort of the builder's side of that organization, you've got to know…

You would love this essay by James Altucher: https://jamesaltucher.com/blog/work-prison/

Key point: Other entities may capture up to 80% of the value you create.

1. Your boss, their boss, and their boss.

2. Shareholders.

3. Vendors.

4. Other employees in the company.

5. Taxes.

Better off working for your own self.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#157

Post by malisper »

If you want a good reason to not join Google in particular, Google does not train their managers. When I was interviewing with Google, I interviewed around 8 friends of mine that worked or previously worked at Google. Lack of management training was a something that every one of them brought up. Two of them had even been managers at Google and basically said "yeah, we weren't trained".

The way it's been described to me is that most managers at Google are TLMs - Tech Lead Managers. They are responsible primarily for the tech lead part and are only coincidentally responsible for the management part. Some teams do have separate Tech Leads and Managers, but for most teams, it's a single person.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#158

Post by zainamro »

garry wrote: post #110
zainamro wrote: post #44

VCs feel the need to constantly remind us that working at a startup is worth our time as a means to fuel the startup workforce. I understand that he was simply sharing an anecdote, but I found the conclusions and headline misleading even verging on dishonest. I've worked at an early stage bay area startup -- hiring progressively got harder and harder because candidates were becoming more aware of the career risks inv…

Yeah, at the end of the post I tried to reference this: You probably shouldn't work at a startup for the money per se. The real value is short cycles with users and being able to make decisions and ship. This is also cautionary for startups. You have to be an actually rewarding place to work, otherwise there is literally no reason to work there.

I agree -- ideally, it shouldn't be about the money. But, everything comes at a cost, and the cost to short cycles with users and more control over your product is quite literally thousands of dollars, endless perks, and a cushion not affordable by most startups. That's the classic early-stage startup dilemma I've experienced -- when left to the decision of good potential hires, I've noticed a disproportionate number not willing to forgo all of that. Big companies are only getting larger and the requirement for startups to outcompete them on everything besides money and perks is higher than ever. At the very least, I think startups should be fully transparent about this instead of waving equity in front of you as though it will be worth anything.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#159

Post by asdfman123 »

He met Peter Thiel before he got so famous.

It's important to be in an industry that's about to blow up. Getting access to future billionaires is much easier than access to current ones.

I agree with the sentiment that you can do a lot more in smaller companies, which is why I work at one that doesn't happen to be a startup. However, thus far I've received no $200 million checks.

Working in Silicon Valley might have felt like fighting the status quo a few years back, but right now, to me, an outsider, it feels a whole lot like the status quo.

With respect to the author, I do not believe this is legitimate life advice but instead is mostly humblebragging.

Re: Downsides to working at a tech giant

#160

Post by Apocryphon »

keithwhor wrote: post #90

The pessimism in this thread really bothers me. I’ve read anecdotes on entrepreneurship being on the decline, but it pains me to read so many negative takes on startups. We’re actively training our young people to avoid taking risks, and it’s going to fuck us — especially if some of those young people have the ambition be early employees at, say, a startup that takes on climate change in a big way. Look — the fact th…

I think many people are just burnt out by false early stage startup promises and all of the grifting that takes place in this industry. I wouldn’t think this sort of reception would have happened in 2012.
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