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Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

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Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#311

Post by TurkishPoptart »

Last year I was really stoked for an interview with this risk analysis company and pretty sure I had a good chance (I have a master's in international studies, which isn't much, but it's something).

After they reviewed my resume and gave me an initial phone screening, which went okay, I was given an assignment to perform. I had 24 hours to write a risk analysis on this Crimean wine company and use my Russian language skills to research the company's ownership, history, and risks. I thought I did an amazing job, having written about 5 pages on them, citing numerous sources from the Russian financial times and other sites.

Then, for the second interview, I talked to a member of their senior leadership (former US Treasury guy), and man, this guy was very much a jerk to me. He asked me, "What is the legislation that makes sanctions work?" I didn't know exactly, so I mentioned a recent UN Security Council resolution that added North Korean officials to US and UN sanctions lists. He interrupted me, saying that if I didn't know, I should just say so. I said I'm trying to tell you what I know. He said "Why didn't you prepare for this interview?" I said I read everything I could find on the company and did my best on the assignment, and did he see the assignment? He paused for a second, lowered his voice, and said "thanks, we'll be in touch" and that was the end of it. I'm still reeling from this, and this was over a year ago. I have every reason to believe that they used and profited from my research, because this company was recently in the news. I suppose this is a sort of crime that is nearly impossible to legislate against. Anyway, I am trying to improve my interview skills (and they did not reply to my request for feedback). Do you think I should have just said "I don't know"? I was always told _never_ to say this, but just to stick to your guns. But I got shot down by a snotty executive here, and it still hurts.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#312

Post by zymhan »

Jagat wrote: post #116
awinder wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The asymmetry is actually pretty funny if you think about what happens when a candidate declines an offer or ghosts a company. If you ghost, they’re likely going to continue to contact over multiple channels. Because they want an answer so that they can take next steps. Same as a candidate. If you say thanks but no thanks, they’re going to want to know why, is there anything they could have done differently, or try t…

Yeah, but it's not likely they're going to sue you regardless of what reason you give for not accepting their offer. There's asymmetry from the other side too.

Can people just drop "fear of being sued" as a catch-all reason for any behavior? It is incredibly expensive and time consuming to file a lawsuit. The average person doesn't go around suing other folks regularly.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#313

Post by Terretta »

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #311

Last year I was really stoked for an interview with this risk analysis company and pretty sure I had a good chance (I have a master's in international studies, which isn't much, but it's something). After they reviewed my resume and gave me an initial phone screening, which went okay, I was given an assignment to perform. I had 24 hours to write a risk analysis on this Crimean wine company and use my Russian language…

It sounds vaguely as though your definition of risk analysis and their definition might not have matched. In other words, you may have done homework for or interviewing for a different nature of job than they expected.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#314

Post by leetrout »

gunshai wrote: post #217
leetrout wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interviewed at twitter for a job working with their infra team. They had an Atlanta data center and they were interviewing me for that role to be remote out of Atlanta. I had to fly to SF to interview via video calls with the team in Atlanta because the manager was in SF. He told me he would prefer someone local in SF over lunch so I knew I was just filler. After lunch interview was with a xoogler and everyone earl…

>I looked at him and said “yep. Autobots roll out” Man I've been steady on the job hunt and I have to say I needed a funny story like this. Thank you. I'd like to think there is a good follow up but my guess is you got ghosted.

This may sound shocking, but I did not get the job ;)

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#315

Post by hinkley »

brendanw wrote: post #222
hinkley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many many years ago I applied at IOActive as a security hobbyist on the off-chance they were willing to take a chance on someone trying to switch specialties. They were not, but they were super, super nice about it. I was on all their email lists and they would reach out from time to time. In fact the founder took me out to lunch at least three years later just to catch up and see where I was. He didn't have to do an…

In my last cycle of interviewing in SF, I ran into two folks I had interviewed in the past. Both very strong interviewers in that I could sense they were putting their full energy into collaborating with me. I remember thinking I really hope I was as gracious of an interviewer. I don't think I have ever been an asshole, but I felt guilty because I have gone into interviews at 70%. SF is small too. For those curious,…

I was just thinking this may be like the first date advice to watch how your date treats the waitstaff. Are they gracious or petty to people they don’t need something from?

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#316

Post by gwbas1c »

perlgeek wrote: post #257
gwbas1c wrote: post #83

As a candidate, I've always preferred polite "thanks, but no thanks" responses in a timely manner. The other kind of feedback that I like is things like, "we need people with a different background / experience than you have." IMO, judgement feedback (you screwed up how you handle your yak shaving, or I don't think we'll get along with each other) is too subjective to be constructive. And, I get it. As someone who's…

There is another type of feedback that I as a candidate would find helpful, and that I would have liked to give candidates, but didn't due to corporate policy. Something along the lines of: "To pay you as much money as you requested, we'd have to categorize you as a [Senior/Prinicipal] developer, but your skills/experience only put you at [Junior/Professional]". If, as a candidate I had received this kind of feedback…

I find it odd to reject someone that way, unless the expectation and range are way off.

Normally, the good interviews begin with some kind of high-level salary discussion with HR or the recruiter. Typically, the recruiter (or HR rep) casually asks what I make in my current job. In one case, I accepted an interview where I'd get a small paycut. (Some things are worth taking a lower salary.)

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#317

Post by gwbas1c »

afpx wrote: post #271
gwbas1c wrote: post #83

As a candidate, I've always preferred polite "thanks, but no thanks" responses in a timely manner. The other kind of feedback that I like is things like, "we need people with a different background / experience than you have." IMO, judgement feedback (you screwed up how you handle your yak shaving, or I don't think we'll get along with each other) is too subjective to be constructive. And, I get it. As someone who's…

I think the idea of only hiring the best is misguided. I’ve hired dozens of people, and I’ve yet to hire a “bad” one. So, either I’m really good at picking the good ones, or there is a low bad candidates per non-bad candidate ratio. Now, not every one became awesome. But, there are places for even the non-best developers to be productive. Good management is putting best employees on critical systems and others in sup…

> Now, not every one became awesome. But, there are places for even the non-best developers to be productive. Good management is putting best employees on critical systems and others in supporting roles.

But how many did you reject because your other reports said no?

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#318

Post by gwbas1c »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #242
mc32 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large company can afford bad hires. You can shuffle them around or find something they can do. A small company can not afford that luxury so they have to be more careful in their hiring. A bad hire completely distracts a small team.

Google for example does not hire when they think it is not beyond reasonable doubt that the hire is a good one. They rather let a good candidate pass. This should prove that numbers speak towards the idea that bad hires are very costly. Google's policy is also not to give feedback. 50 percent of their hires had to apply more than once. I would say large companies do not need that exceptional candidate since they have…

> 50 percent of their hires had to apply more than once.

That's one of the reasons why I pass when a Google recruiter comes why way.

(The other is that I don't want to move. I'm no longer a bachelor who can move on the drop of a hat, moving is way to disruptive to my family.)

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#319

Post by hinkley »

pandaman wrote: post #71
hinkley wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We give people actionable feedback at work because we expect the team to benefit from the feedback. What's the benefit of feedback to someone you already decided won't be on the team?

If you decided that the person won't be on any team in the entire company ever then, go ahead and ghost. Otherwise, you might want to consider that both the company and the candidate will change over time but having been rudely ghosted in the past will always be an issue between them.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me it’s mostly been about how I was treated during the interview and less about after. I am deeply opposed to hazing rituals.

I would probably apply again at places that ghosted me, but not ones who use stress tests. Only two types of people use stress tests. Sadists, and groups that spend most weeks running around with their heads on fire.

You’re not going to learn this about me in an interview, but if you put me in a room of panicked people I’ll be the calmest one. If you keep us there, I may not be the last person to tap out but when I do there will only be one or two left in the room and the end will be in sight. And for sure I’ll remember more details for the postmortem than the next two people combined, and I’ll do more with that info than anyone else.

The ugly truth is that I keep going even when I get into deficit territory, and since I know this about myself I’m highly motivated to prevent such situations for recurring. I’m always on the lookout for antagonistic people and processes. I’ll work my ass off on these problems on my schedule if that means that they don’t keep happening at random to me or others. If the antagonist is a person you immediately go into the untrustworthy bucket.

So if you antagonize me in an interview, we’re already off on the wrong foot, I don’t trust you, and who likes to collaborate with engineers they can’t trust? And since you didn’t give me time to ask revealing questions, how do I know you aren’t like this every day? Working for crazy people just makes you crazy too.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#320

Post by wiseleo »

Part of the problem is inaccurate job descriptions. They should be structured with transparent weights attached to specific requirements. They are currently written by lawyers and for lawyers. If a job description requires automated parsing, it contains too much irrelevant to jobseeker content.

So far, they only do that for travel time estimates.

An interview is like passing an acceptance test. It would be nice to know the actual acceptance criteria and other metrics.

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