Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback • Hacker News Board

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#271

Post by afpx » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:20 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #83

As a candidate, I've always preferred polite "thanks, but no thanks" responses in a timely manner. The other kind of feedback that I like is things like, "we need people with a different background / experience than you have." IMO, judgement feedback (you screwed up how you handle your yak shaving, or I don't think we'll get along with each other) is too subjective to be constructive. And, I get it. As someone who's…

I think the idea of only hiring the best is misguided. I’ve hired dozens of people, and I’ve yet to hire a “bad” one. So, either I’m really good at picking the good ones, or there is a low bad candidates per non-bad candidate ratio.

Now, not every one became awesome. But, there are places for even the non-best developers to be productive. Good management is putting best employees on critical systems and others in supporting roles.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#272

Post by timhickle » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:40 PM UTC

The feedback mantra I follow as a manager is simple: "Feedback isn't about the past, it's about the future."

A lot of managers I know conflate feedback with critiques or praise, which are very different tools used for very different purposes.

Feedback in the interview process is invaluable, whereas critiques are unvaluable.

For example, here might be a piece of feedback that would help someone perform better in a future interview:

"During the debugging brainstorming work scenario, we liked that you brought ideas in many different parts of the architecture, but some of the best solutions we saw for this scenario indicated which options were most likely and grouped them by system or issue type."

That feedback is about performance and provides suggestions for improvement. In my experience, that's the type of feedback that's really well received and rarely debated.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#273

Post by StavrosK » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:41 PM UTC

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #237

adamredwoods wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rejection is incredibly difficult to deal with. I suspect some people will say they are immune to it, but (anecdotal example) I've been rejected from hundreds of jobs over the past 3 years and every one hurts a little. I felt it never got easier to deal with rejection, but it got easier to interview and move on. Perhaps it's not the rejection, but the energy in creating the next steps I need to take (more resumes, ta…

Isn't rejection good in the long run? For me it gives clarity especially if there is feedback and it motivated me to try harder and care less.

It's not better than not getting rejected, no.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#274

Post by cion » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

edu wrote: post #269

cion wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't always get a prime. For example, 4! = 2 * 3 * 4 = 24, 24 + 1 = 25, 25 is not prime. The point is that N! + 1 is not divisible by any number from 2 to N (always leaves a remainder of 1), so either it is prime, or it is divisible by something larger than N!, therefore larger than N. In the case of 25, it is divisible by 5 (> 4).

The parent said to multiply _only the primes_ from 2 to N, and then add one not factorial plus one. In your example it would be (2 * 3) + 1 = 7, prime.

Oh, sorry, didn't realize that. It still doesn't work, though, as the example of 2 * 3 * 5 * 7 * 11 * 13 + 1 = 59 * 509 shows.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#275

Post by learnstats2 » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:50 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #236

freshbagels wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That bit made no sense to me. I think the opposite is true; when given no concrete feedback, one begins to hypothesize why they were rejected, and their mind will often point them to discrimination as the reason. If one is given clear, concrete feedback ("We rejected you because you didn't come up with a simpler algorithm, and you lack experience with framework x"), there is little room for them to think they were di…

From the point of view of a company that employ many people who do hiring, someone is guaranteed to write something stupid. When people write code, they do bugs. When they write feedback, they do stupid. Or even more likely, someone will inadvertly show his bias that could have stayed under cover. People are not that great in hiding their biases over many interactions.

We're dancing around a reason that the article misses: a lot of hiring decisions are discriminatory.

If they were confident about having processes with no discrimination, it would likely be advantageous to the company to show their cards and give the feedback.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#276

Post by plutonorm » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:51 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #253

wgerard wrote: post #10

We interviewed a lot of hiring managers/etc. while we were working on a previous business in the hiring space. As part of that, we asked them this very question. The fear of litigation was by far the biggest reason we heard, but there were some other popular reasons (mostly relating around conflict avoidance): * Notably, giving feedback feels like an opening for the candidate to submit a rebuttal instead of ending th…

When I ran my recruiting business, we told people they were awesome, but not the kind of awesome we need right now. Sometimes I would offer personal feedback that was "off the record" if I felt they really needed to hear it. I had a one candidate come thru who wasn't a fit. But on top of that, his clothes were filthy and his resume had a bunch of typos in it. I told him after the interview that we wouldn't be hiring…

This is close to my heart because I'm transgender but in the closet at work. My long hair is really important to me and close to my heart. I suspect I'm having trouble landing business analysis roles because of it and that sucks.

I think you're a ---- for considering someone's haircut a reason not to hire.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#277

Post by lmilcin » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:52 PM UTC

adamredwoods wrote: post #122

CapmCrackaWaka wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that most of the time candidates just want to hear something that puts the situation out of their control, and therefore wasn't merit based. It's always easier to hear "I'm breaking up with you because I'm moving for a new job and want to concentrate on my career" than "I'm breaking up with you because you're awkward around my friends and aren't interesting".

Rejection is incredibly difficult to deal with. I suspect some people will say they are immune to it, but (anecdotal example) I've been rejected from hundreds of jobs over the past 3 years and every one hurts a little. I felt it never got easier to deal with rejection, but it got easier to interview and move on. Perhaps it's not the rejection, but the energy in creating the next steps I need to take (more resumes, ta…

To be rejected from hundreds of jobs suggest you should reevaluate how you approach the entire problem.

At the very basic level you should understand what are the expectations of the employer and whether you can fill those expectations. Try to find and talk to people at those positions you are applying to. Try to understand where you fall short.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#278

Post by draw_down » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 12:54 PM UTC

awinder wrote: post #109

kilroy123 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's all very understandable, at the very least give some kind of generic rejection. This was many years ago, but one time I did an all-day onsite interview (~6 hours long) and I was ghosted and never heard from the company again. That infuriates me even to this day. At least give me some kind of news that it was a no.

The asymmetry is actually pretty funny if you think about what happens when a candidate declines an offer or ghosts a company. If you ghost, they’re likely going to continue to contact over multiple channels. Because they want an answer so that they can take next steps. Same as a candidate. If you say thanks but no thanks, they’re going to want to know why, is there anything they could have done differently, or try t…

So make them be the ones to say no. “No” is more like, raise your asking price to what you’d need to feel comfortable working there. If they don’t want to pay it then that’s their decision.

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#279

Post by rightbyte » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

stakhanov wrote: post #216

Koshkin wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rejected from hundreds of jobs Sounds extreme. Were you applying to random jobs?

It's not extreme at all. Companies are treating it as a numbers game, which is part of what the article is about. The flipside of the coin is that candidates are forced into treating it as a numbers game too. For example: As a candidate you might submit a resume and get an automated "Thank you, we'll be in touch". There's a large variety of reasons why you might face a very low probability that someone will indeed be…

Sounds like me on Tinder. There is no use thinking to much before first contact anyway. I have to spam and see what happens.

Luckely my experience in job searching has not involved ghosting or spamming. Is that an US thing? Or is "job dating" less parallell in smaller cities or countries?

Re: Reasons Why Job Seekers Are Not Given Feedback

#280

Post by conanite » Fri, Dec 20, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

cion wrote: post #274

edu wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent said to multiply _only the primes_ from 2 to N, and then add one not factorial plus one. In your example it would be (2 * 3) + 1 = 7, prime.

Oh, sorry, didn't realize that. It still doesn't work, though, as the example of 2 * 3 * 5 * 7 * 11 * 13 + 1 = 59 * 509 shows.

It's a little bit more subtle. Assume that there is a finite number of primes, and P is the set of all primes p0, p1, p2... pn. If you multiply all these together and add 1, you have a number Q that's not divisible by any number in P. So P cannot be the set of all primes.