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Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

theguardian.com

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Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#141

Post by aalleavitch »

sooheon wrote: post #129
aalleavitch wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree in principle with the idea that the physical aspects of/influences on depression are worth studying. I do, however, think the overall approach we are taking towards depression as a society is fundamentally backwards. We have a massive industry that is focused around producing psychiatric medication so that people can more effectively operate in the society we've structured around them, but we didn't…

I think this is essentially a complaint that the study does not share your political topspin. I pretty much agree with the view that depression is a holistic problem, and the causes run deep. Treating the symptom is not likely to be a cure for the systemic disease. But you can't dismiss scientific findings because they don't exactly share your ideological diagnosis.

For the record, I'm not dismissing them at all, I'm putting forth a hypothesis regarding them. My "political topspin" here is informed by the study, my main point of contention regards the interpretation of the direction these results are pointing in and where future research and resources should lie. I think investing in air filters is a silly approach to this problem if you're looking at root causes. Restructuring our economy to be friendlier to workers and their environment is a comparatively monumental task, but it's actually tackling both problems at their more fundamental causes.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#142

Post by higeyuki »

nashashmi wrote: post #109

What counts as air pollution? Smog? Sulfur dioxide?

Quite a simple concept, it's particulate matter in the air, the greater the density the worse the effect on humans, animals, and ecology. It would be difficult to measure the effect of one specific particulate's effect.

Particle pollution — also called particulate matter (PM) — is made up of particles (tiny pieces) of solids or liquids that are in the air. These particles may include:

    Dust
    Dirt
    Soot
    Smoke
    Drops of liquid
Some particles are big enough (or appear dark enough) to see — for example, you can often see smoke in the air. Others are so small that you can’t see them in the air.

https://www.cdc.gov/air/particulate_matter.html

What Are People Dying of on High Air Pollution Days? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00139...

"The air pollution disasters in London in 1952, the Meuse valley in 1930, and in Donoroa, Pennsylvania, in 1948 made it clear that extremely high levels of particulate-based smog could produce large increases in the daily mortality rate."

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#143

Post by bilekas »

drderidder wrote: post #136

No doubt pollution will make you sick, but I'm inclined to think that depression has a lot to do with just living in an over-crowded, unattractive, big industrial city environment, having little contact with the natural world.

Agree.. The title seems to be pointing finger at air polution and global warming only and leads to a lot of spurious correlations..

The same could be said for : 'Working night shifts long term is linked to depression and suicide'

Now, while you can reduce global warming and air polution, its different to try and say we need to all work only during the day.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#144

Post by pintable »

Not unsurprising, though obvious caveat about correlation and causation. I wouldn't be surprised if pollution is correlated with other things like low quality of life, poverty, etc. All of these probably interact to create an environment that leads to poor mental health.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#145

Post by throwawaylolx »

sooheon wrote: post #127
throwawaylolx wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it has an effect on the average person doesn't mean it must have an effect on every person. It can still be a placebo for any one individual, and I don't see the harm of asking how does one double-check if the effect is real or not.

There isn't much harm, there just isn't much point either. We don't usually interrogate people's assumptions down to axioms and provable claims, because it's impossible to live that way. Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?

>Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?

I do have evidence that eating mud is likely to hurt my stomach: the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of.

In OP's case, however, considering that the relevant body of litetuare shows that placebos are very effective for improving sleep quality, I would say it's very reasonable to ask someone to elaborate on why they are so convinced that their method of treatment is not a placebo for sleep quality.

No one is saying they have to "prove" it--they can just elaborate on their conviction: perhaps OP had many insomnnia treatments before and this was the only one that showed efficiency. Not a proof, but it is some circumstatial evidence. On the other hand, maybe OP is not aware how effective placebos are, in which case his statement may be too strong to straight-out declare that "it's not a placebo effect."

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#146

Post by labawi »

corin_ wrote: post #87
close04 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trick is to adjust only the parameter you were targeting. Say you also change temperature and humidity and they are the real culprits, or big contributors. This is why the unethical method would be more precise because conceivably it's easier to introduce specific pollutants in the experiment. Of course this would be irresponsible so I'm hoping that by combining data from multiple studies and getting a better gri…

Would it be unethical to provide a free filter that takes out all particles, then re-adds one specific pollutant back into the air at the exact same level? On the one hand, the machine is specifically administering the pollutant to humans; on the other, without the device they'd be getting the exact same and worse.. I'd say yes if offered that for my house and it could help research.

If you are talking about things like PM10 or PM2.5, then it would be infeasible to re-add an identical or even plausibly equivalent pollutant, unless it's the one removed.

By definition, it is a concentration of things small and solid. Whether they are ground tires, engine soot, rock/dirt, pollen, mold spores or powdered cyanides, they are counted the same.

If you wish to replicate pollutants, then consider ethical implications of: Looks the same to me, my colleagues and everyone I know, yet it's not, or is it?

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#147

Post by sooheon »

aalleavitch wrote: post #141
sooheon wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is essentially a complaint that the study does not share your political topspin. I pretty much agree with the view that depression is a holistic problem, and the causes run deep. Treating the symptom is not likely to be a cure for the systemic disease. But you can't dismiss scientific findings because they don't exactly share your ideological diagnosis.

For the record, I'm not dismissing them at all, I'm putting forth a hypothesis regarding them. My "political topspin" here is informed by the study, my main point of contention regards the interpretation of the direction these results are pointing in and where future research and resources should lie. I think investing in air filters is a silly approach to this problem if you're looking at root causes. Restructuring…

> I think investing in air filters is a silly approach to this problem

The problem of air pollution and the problem of the fucked up society we live in are not identical in scope. You can't dismiss the solution to the smaller problem for not solving the larger one.

If living in a smog filled city is affecting my health, I will invest in air filters and masks before I invest in societal change that will change the way the world does business. I can do one in an afternoon, and the other is an unbounded task.

We should be able to tackle problems at large and in the small simultaneously, but your position strikes me as all or nothing in the sense that nothing but your exact prescription will do.

Given A: fucked up society, B: air pollution, C: depression, the world is probably a cyclical graph between all three. You are denying that B and C could be connected, just because you think A is such a huge problem. This is putting the blinders on against evidence for political reasons.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#148

Post by sooheon »

ailideex wrote: post #110
sooheon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is begging the question, which priors are strong enough to merit “certainty” in the face of opposing evidence?

There is opposing evidence?

Multiple links to recent studies in the article, and a large body of work on the effects of pollution on health in general.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#149

Post by sooheon »

throwawaylolx wrote: post #145
sooheon wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't much harm, there just isn't much point either. We don't usually interrogate people's assumptions down to axioms and provable claims, because it's impossible to live that way. Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?

>Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach? I do have evidence that eating mud is likely to hurt my stomach: the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of. In OP's case, however, considering that the relevant body of litetuare shows that placebos are very effective for improving sleep quality, I would…

> the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of

Please link some examples, because I somehow doubt that you referenced them before forming an opinion. I think we all know eating lots of mud is a bad idea without referencing literature, let alone qualifiers about population groups.

I'm curious if you've lived in any of these hyper-polluted cities. The health effects of breathing such smog is absolutely palpable.

Here's a couple of studies on how PM2.5 affects your arteries, blood pressure, stress hormones, etc. I don't doubt all of these effects can add up to a better or worse night's sleep.

- "clear cardiopulmonary benefits of indoor air purification among young, healthy adults", after only 48 hrs of intervention: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/

- "significantly higher blood pressure, hormones, insulin resistance, and biomarkers of oxidative stress and inflammation among individuals exposed to higher PMs": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28808144/

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#150

Post by im3w1l »

sooheon wrote: post #130
im3w1l wrote: post #7

> The results show strong correlations, but research that would prove a causal link is difficult because ethical experiments cannot deliberately expose people to harm. This is kind of my hobby horse: you don't need to subject people to harm to test causuality. You can do the opposite: Remove harm and see what happens. Maybe give people free HVAC upgrades to filter more particles.

Which they've already done, many times. Here's one study where they either gave real or fake air purifiers to people in Shanghai and measured cardiopulmonary benefits of intervention: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26022815

Nice! But no mention of depression there.
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