Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, you could not simply explain it to them, you would have to show it to some of them, and let them live the life, before they could make an informed decision. Perhaps the best advice would be to contact other tribes that have been assimilated, and see how they feel about the process. Would they go back, if they could?
Yeah, that's the inherent problem with this sort of thing. We say the moral thing is to show them and let them decide, but they can't make an informed decision. A lot of things sound really good when you hear about them, but wind up utterly unsatisfying when you actually have them.
Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
331–340 of 378 posts
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
Observing this discussion, it occurs to me (not for the first time) that it would be nice if people discussing the topic took each other's words literally, didn't take them to mean anything beyond the literal meaning. xenophanes says "Our way of life is better" and argues for "giv[ing] them access to technology and to our way of life" and against "[p]reserving their backwards culture", "actions that maintain them in…
I actually think it's just that difficult a problem. Whether we decide to contact them or not, in a sense we're still deciding _for_ them whether or not they will have access to technology that will fundamentally reshape their culture. In a sense it also isn't our place to _care_ if _they_ decide to fundamentally reshape their culture based on what we "give" them. Both of these viewpoints have been important in world…
A numerical majority of comments are probably polite, yes, but here are some quotes...
"Your reply is so laced with hypocrisy its disgusting."
"Talk about arrogance...and ignorance."
"I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical..."
Next, you say: "If we're putting words in mouths, it's because those words are the natural conclusion proceeded to upon viewing the actually mouthed words from the opposite perspective."Obviously that wasn't the conclusion of the person who holds this opposite perspective. If you think their words imply a monstrous conclusion, then either they must be a monster, or their thought process leads to a different conclusion, and if you want to carry out a constructive conversation, you should assume the latter and press them. Here's a part of my above post that I didn't include, but I will now:
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Probably it would help if you a) noticed when you read things into comments (be on your guard when discussing politics or morals) and b) explicitly said so when you addressed a claim someone didn't make. For example, d3x could have said something like, "You say that our lives are so much better than theirs, that contact with primitive cultures destroys those cultures, that you'd have to be a flaming idiot to want to live like that.... Do you therefore advocate forcing them to live like us? [You could answer that by reading the third paragraph of Markham's post--"let them decide"--but perhaps d3x thought that was a sarcastic quip, which I suppose is believable. Another tip for navigating rocky topics: don't assume sarcasm unless you're quite sure.] If so, then I've got a lot to say about that. If not, then precisely what do you advocate?"
And then DanielBMarkham could have said something like... well, I'm not him and I don't speak for him, but perhaps he'd say something like, "No, I don't advocate that. What do I advocate? Well, I don't prescribe a particular course of action, but let's take an example. A group of people who felt generous might visit them in a boat, set up a demonstration of modern technology on the shore, and offer to teach anything to natives who wanted to learn."
And maybe d3x would reply, "They'd just stay on the shore, teaching them and getting nothing in return? Who'd be that generous? They'd only do it if they had an ulterior motive--to convert them to their religion, to get cheap unskilled labor from them, to trick them into selling their natural resources for much less than they're worth, and everything else that's gone wrong in the past."
And maybe Markham would say, "Oh, snap, that's a problem," or he'd say "Maybe a rich billionaire who felt charity-minded (or PR-minded) would fund the whole effort, and these teachers would follow through with it because they'd be paid," or he'd say "Dude, doing unskilled labor for a price that's ridiculously cheap to us might look like horrible exploitation to you, but in fact it's better than the lives they currently lead. The fact that they choose it over their current lives is proof that it's better, unless you wish to argue that you know better than them, which is hypocritical given your earlier argument." But this is just me talking now.
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Regarding guns: I would recommend being careful and slow about giving them war materials (or the capability to make them) in case one party gets hold of them and attempts to conquer the rest of the island. But it's not a moral/legal imperative, any more than it is to be careful about introducing college kids to alcohol. (People may hate you if you do it badly, but they can't really stop or punish you.) I'll comment that any civilization that advances in science and has access to plentiful resources will eventually develop all sorts of weapons, including guns; and that the developments of fire, bronze, iron, steel, flight, nuclear physics, and many more things all led to weapons as well as productive tools, and I think it was worth it.
Disease is the objection I find most potentially problematic. Also, one part of me says it would be interesting to let them be so we could watch them, study them; another part says that if I knew someone in there, and she was sick with a disease that modern medicine could cure, I would sure as hell want to save her. Or if I knew someone working his butt off, and I knew I could give him some technological tools that would make it ten times easier for him, I'd do that.
I think that's the best way it can happen: if some individual people from one society are connected with some individual people in the other, and they get and use some advanced things whenever they feel the need. Then their neighbors might see the results, decide they want some advanced things too, and try to work out a way to get them. Maybe a few families would want to send their (young adult) kids out to the advanced society so they could stay for a while, learn things and get things, and bring them back home. Or maybe they'd move out with their kids, young children, and raise their family and run a career for a decade or two, periodically sending gifts and maybe visiting their extended family in the old country, perhaps moving back eventually. You know, this is sounding a good deal like what some immigrants from poor countries to the U.S. do today.
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
"By definition, Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call Alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine. " --Tim Minchin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUQn0HhGEk
Traditional medicine != Alternative medicine, it's the only medicine available for majority of people on Earth (about 80% of people in Asia are exposed almost exclusively to it). Chinese had their medicine when we europeans were still living in caves.
"The American National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) cites examples including naturopathy, chiropractic medicine, herbalism, traditional CHINESE MEDICINE, Ayurveda, meditation, yoga, biofeedback, hypnosis, homeopathy, acupuncture, and nutritional-based therapies, in addition to a range of other practices.[5]"
Capitalization for emphasis.
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#334You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…
We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…
http://www.amazon.com/Ishmael-Adventure-Spirit-Daniel-Quinn/...
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…
What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
Very typical left wing way of thinking? I'm staying out of this slugfest because there's no way anybody will end up edified by it - but in what possible way can you characterize philosophical intolerance as an exclusively left-wing trait? That's just weird.
Because he sees himself as right-wing, so anyone disagreeing must be a socialist; therefore he's falling in the very trap he warned his opponent of. Funnily recursive indeed.
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
I readily acknowledge we may agree more than it first appears given the particular emphasis we each chose. But I do think there is substantive disagreement here within the realm of non-violent (and, dare I say it: civilized) ways to approach the matter. The very idea of having a way that "we" deal with "uncontacted tribes" is collectivist on both ends. Individuals should do whatever they want without violating anyone…
Observing this discussion, it occurs to me (not for the first time) that it would be nice if people discussing the topic took each other's words literally, didn't take them to mean anything beyond the literal meaning. xenophanes says "Our way of life is better" and argues for "giv[ing] them access to technology and to our way of life" and against "[p]reserving their backwards culture", "actions that maintain them in…
I think it's pretty harmless to guess what people mean and reply to issues they didn't directly raise as long as you try to keep things pretty impersonal and focus on issues that are worth discussing in their own right. I don't think it's avoidable to make some guesses about what other people mean b/c writing is never 100% clear (plus lots of people are in the habit of being unclear so if you don't add substantial interpretation for them they blame you for being difficult).
I don't particularly object to Raganwald misunderstanding me at first. We got on the sort of the same page in only a couple comments. Honestly I consider that fast/good. It's the 3 people who assumed or wanted me to be joking b/c they disagreed with me that I have a problem with... The guy posting intentional ad hominems against me. The guy posting that he's lowering his opinion of HN b/c I got upvoted. All the people who take or make stuff personal and don't focus on the issues and post nasty stuff without argument and don't correct their misunderstandings even after clarifications...
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…
I've rarely seen more assumptions and projections made in a few paragraphs. On the one hand, you judge these cultures as "primitive" and "caveman". Then in the next breath you decry pomposity and paternalism. Yeah, we've found over and over again that contact with "primitive" cultures destroys the cultures. Tell that to Native Americans in both South and North America. Their "primitive" culture could have taught our…
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#339"If illegal loggers or miners contact these people, they won't shoot images... They'll shoot guns." Very few realize that there's more to protect in the Rainforest than trees.
What is more troublesome, is that nobody knows how often this has happened in the past.
Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe
#340Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because he sees himself as right-wing, so anyone disagreeing must be a socialist; therefore he's falling in the very trap he warned his opponent of. Funnily recursive indeed.
You're wrong. I do not self-identify as right wing. I dislike most of the right wing. I said some stuff is left wing b/c left wing ppl so often believe it.
Sorry to bother you. What kills me is that it's almost impossible to have a good coherent political discussion on usenet, forums, whatever. It devolves incredibly fast in flamebait, and that's a pity. That would be a great startup idea : invent a forum system that allows proper, reasonable and contradictory political discussions but somehow avoids the Godwin malediction. Am I asking too much?