Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground • Hacker News Board

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#141

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:28 PM UTC

endymi0n wrote: post #131

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be a universal phenomenon (I see similar trends in many European countries, including mine) and I wouldn't use the word "played". The left seems to be as keen on legislating morality as the right.

Especially if there would have been reasonable, well researched alternatives, like criminalizing the buyer, and not the seller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Model_approach_to_prost... > It has also been reported that 12,5 % of men used to solicit prostitutes before the implementation of the law in 1999 whereas in 2014 only 7,7 % of men purchased sexual services.[5] As the top comment said, this was never abou…

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Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#142

Post by jm__87 » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

np_tedious wrote: post #42

jseliger wrote: post #6

I just wrote this, in reply to an essay about The Irishman https://jakeseliger.com/2019/12/18/links-lessons-to-unlearn-... : “The lonesome Irishman.” On the movie The Irishman ; the essay almost makes me want to watch it, but not quite enough, because I feel like I’ve seen enough mob movies. After The Sopranos, Goodfellas, The Godfather, and probably some more, plus reading Diego Gambetta’s Codes of the Underworld: H…

Why shouldn't opiods be legal? Sure, they are bad. But so is tobacco. Most overdoses happen precisely because of unstable dosages or unexpected fentanyl.

I think you need to balance the risks of addiction and negative health consequences against the cost of having gangs/cartels profiting off of the fact that the substance is controlled. With marijuana, it is neither very addictive nor are the health consequences of using marijuana very severe, at least in the short term. Legalization is a bit of a no brainer for marijuana.

Opioids are at the other end of the spectrum - they are highly addictive and aside from the possibility of accidental overdose, even just using them at the correct dosage carries a lot of negative health consequences. It is not clear that you get a net win for society by legalizing opioids.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#143

Post by 0xBA5ED » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:32 PM UTC

thundergolfer wrote: post #117

0xBA5ED wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is "legislating morality" refers to pushing legislation based solely on moral concerns. There are other reasons to outlaw murder than just morality.

All those other concerns bear out as moral concerns. Much legislation is technocratic and hides its moralism, but it’s all questions of right and wrong, good and bad, at the end of the day.

Not so. There are considerations of tangible consequences for some unconsenting third party. That's the difference. Outlawing something "because it's wrong" is different than outlawing something because it wrongs someone.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#144

Post by wallace_f » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:35 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #133

jrochkind1 wrote: post #22

You mean exactly how sex workers said it would, but nobody listened to them, because it was never actually about protecting sex workers or victims of sex trafficking? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sex-workers-bill-fosta-sesta_... https://medium.com/voices/while-america-gawks-at-stormy-dani...

I have friends and ex-partners who are sex workers and seeing this stuff come into action, seeing them get denied at borders, seeing their lives become ever more dangerous has been utterly soul crushing. Sex worker rights is a huge frontier that we need to fight harder on, sex trafficking and sex work are two different things, and spiting workers because you find them unsavoury or want to be their saviour under the v…

I'm always puzzled by all the Americans who travel to Asia for all the local markets: everything from food, to personal care, to sex markets, to even medical care. My dental care in Taiwan has been extraordinarily cheap and very good. And yet then I come back to America and see the same people ostensibly support the same authoritarian politicians, police and bureaucrats who spend taxpayer money on authoritarian policing of voluntary markets: everything from outright criminalizing markets, to creating so much red tape and regulatory laws that small business owners find it hard to compete. This is not to say there is not a place for sane and reasonable regulations. In all of Korea, Taiwan, Japan you can find street foods and sex markets and God Forbid outdoor jungle gyms and even full weight lifting sets at popular parks hiking trails. Even though those things can be technically illegal they are tolerated due to common sense, and I just can't see how our decisions to head down the path of authoritarianism in America is not just worse for all of: human dignity, prosperity, and freedom.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#145

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:35 PM UTC

lurquer wrote: post #57

hiram112 wrote: post #49

I think the most unmentioned facet regarding prostitution is that for many men, prostitution may be the only way for them to obtain sex, which I feel is just as much of a "right" as is the right for women to obtain an abortion. No I don't believe taxpayers should be required to pay for prostitutes, nor for abortions. But the market for both should be decriminalized. Not only is this something that is morally right, t…

Your fourth paragraph is insightful. Prostitution, however, worsens the situation. The detrimental aspect of harem-based societies is not bunches of horny men unable to get laid... rather, it's bunches of single men -- horny or not -- that are not part of a family, and who have no need to be productive. Prostitution lessens the desirability of men and decreases somewhat their desire to marry. This causes further decl…

People like Andrew Yang are telling us that massive layoffs are coming anyway, because robots. Maybe you disapprove of lives of video-gaming and regular custom with prostitutes, but if it's inevitable maybe we should try to deal with it rather than grinding people up in our efforts to prevent it. Human lives can have meaning that is not related to work.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#146

Post by belorn » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:36 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #121

belorn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can just point to Sweden. The meaning of prostitution has change in the public discussed to be the same as rape, regardless of consent. Being pro-prostitution here is the same as being pro-rape which is very anti-feminist in eye of the Swedish public and people with such views are seen as far-right. The two arguments that people here use is that a person that do sex for money would not had done so voluntary, thus t…

> The meaning of prostitution has change in the public discussed to be the same as rape, regardless of consent. As a Swede, I say that that is an exageration. But it is true that very few, if any, public figure dare to speak up for legalizing prostitution. On the other hand, it's not a crime that the police prioritize, and last time I heard, no one have been more than fined for paying a sex-worker.

When the RFSL and Amnesty made their announcement to work for legalization there was a lot of media focus on the question. There was a lot of anger from people and articles about people leaving Amnesty and the Swedish branch making statement against the decision.

It was also not many months ago that V (the most left leaning party) suggested that the punishment for paying a sex-worker should be increased to similar levels as rape, with jail time as minimum.

We could say that V views are a fringe part of the feminist movement in Sweden, but I am not sure that is actually a correct assessment. As you say, few, if any, public figure dare to speak up with opposing views on the topic. It is hard to estimate popular opinion outside of political polls.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#147

Post by lstodd » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:37 PM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #67

heydabop wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual infidelity seems inevitable if the only thing preventing it is inability to find someone to have sex with.

Sure, but that might be the difference between 2 years and 30. "Inevitable either way" doesn't mean that the needle stands still.

More like 2 and 30 weeks in this particular case.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#148

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:38 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #94

paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

[deleted]

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#149

Post by urbanjunkie » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:39 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #130

apatters wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not look at numbers rather than anecdotes? A poll by YouGov in 2016 found that Republicans were 7% more likely than Democrats to believe sex work should remain illegal: https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me... But the real gap was between the genders. Women were 14% more likely to say sex work should be illegal than men. They were also 18% more likely to say it's immoral. Now what "feminist…

Your numbers confirm rather than refute parent's hypothesis. Prostitutes sell what men want more cheaply than other women sell it. Some other women disapprove. Some portion of those other women are feminists.

"Prostitutes sell what men want more cheaply than other women sell it"

You poor incel.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#150

Post by tomp » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 12:41 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #94

paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

A lot of people argue that "consensual murder" (a.k.a. euthanasia) should be legal (with the appropriate safeguards to prevent abuse).

Edit: Actually I retract this comment. You bring an interesting point, and shouldn't be downvoted. I guess the argument "to prevent abuse" includes "to prevent people from exchanging their lives for money". And you could say the same for sex - people should be able to choose to have sex / be murdered / donate their organs, but shouldn't be able to exchange that for money.

I guess the counterargument would be, that the exact definition of "exchange" depends on whether you're actually giving something - arguably, you're giving up your life / kidney (and most people aren't willing to give that up, regardless of whether they're being paid or not), but not necessarily giving up sex (and many people are giving it up pretty often... the only difference is, are they also getting paid for it, or not).