Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground • Hacker News Board

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#111

Post by Thorentis » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

cameronbrown wrote: post #96

Thorentis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

I think they mean: Laws codify common morals. They are not themselves morals. Pushing this underground will hurt nothing but victims in the long run. Is that moral? Of course not.

Well it depends if you like it's moral for people to use social media for prostitution. If your code of morals thinks that shouldn't be allowed, then these laws make sense. If you disagree - and that's fine - you can't blame "legislating morality".

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#112

Post by DyslexicAtheist » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 10:31 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #86

jniedrauer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are always outliers with strange opinions in any sufficiently large movement, but a much more common feminist position is to be strongly in support of sex workers rights and safety.

I can just point to Sweden. The meaning of prostitution has change in the public discussed to be the same as rape, regardless of consent. Being pro-prostitution here is the same as being pro-rape which is very anti-feminist in eye of the Swedish public and people with such views are seen as far-right. The two arguments that people here use is that a person that do sex for money would not had done so voluntary, thus t…

> I can just point to Sweden. The meaning of prostitution has change in the public discussed to be the same as rape

is this really representative of how the public thinks or just a small pocket within a pocket of politically correct snowflakes? Knowing plenty of Swedes (most are much closer to the far left than to the far right). I'm familiar with Sweden's (strange) view of what constitutes rape (see Assange), and personally think that is a step forward. But I never met anyone argue that "all prostitution is sex slavery" or "anti-feminist".

> paying a person to do something with their body is the same as buying a human being, which would be slavery.

This seems like a gross simplification. If I offer my body in exchange for money without a middle-man/pimp then it is still my choice. Consider an individual with below avg IQ unable to find meaningful work using his head but equipped with an unusually strong body/frame. Is it slavery if I freelance myself out to a moving company and lug around boxes and furniture all day? What about a male gay prostitute who voluntarily makes money on the side. It is even besides the point if the person is supporting a drug-habit or not.

You can't pretend to be pro choice and feminist if at the same time the system under which you think socially outcasts everyone who thinks differently.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#113

Post by apatters » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 10:32 AM UTC

hiram112 wrote: post #44

paulgb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

It isn't just the religious right that pushes for backwards prostitution laws. It is also... feminists. Aren't feminists always going on about "my body, my right" when it comes to abortion and other forms of contraceptives? Of course, but when it comes to prostitution, they seem to take a 'differing' view. Why? When prostitution is decriminalized, the price of sex goes down, as would be expected in any market where t…

Why not look at numbers rather than anecdotes?

A poll by YouGov in 2016 found that Republicans were 7% more likely than Democrats to believe sex work should remain illegal: https://www.vox.com/2016/3/11/11203740/prostitution-legal-me...

But the real gap was between the genders. Women were 14% more likely to say sex work should be illegal than men. They were also 18% more likely to say it's immoral.

Now what "feminists" think is another question, I doubt that has been studied, and that term means a lot of things to a lot of people. But according to the polls the majority of the opposition in the US to legalizing and tolerating sex work comes from women, regardless of their political orientation.

One can extrapolate that electing more women would lead to harsher laws about sex work and indeed both have happened in the past decade.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#114

Post by pergadad » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

nullifidian wrote: post #74

It's important to note that whenever trafficking is discussed , in 95% of cases it's going to be about consensual prostitution between adults. Anti-sex activists have been successful at attacking the vocabulary. "But anti-prostitution activists like Hughes often use “sexual exploitation” to include any kind of prostitution or sex work—in fact, Hughes insists in her article that "trafficking occurs even if the woman c…

95% seems like an awfully wrong guess. There is a lot of forced prostitution, then a huge great area of those that for various reasons have no other option (from abusive boyfriend to immigration status to economic factors) and then a very small crust of voluntary sex workers, mostly at the high-end of the market. The ratio between these three will vary massively between country/region/city but in any case it is often difficult to identify who is victim and who is voluntary because the world is complex. (Are the African ladies prostituting themselves in Italy doing so voluntarily when they are afraid of voodoo curses? Is the meth addict doing it voluntarily? Is the girl that can't afford her daughter's diabetes medication by any other 'job' doing so voluntarily?)

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#115

Post by Quarrelsome » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 10:46 AM UTC

taneq wrote: post #103

anigbrowl wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some feminists surely do, but conflating some with all is a fallacy of composition that hinders discussion. Your reasoning in the rest of the comment seems rather questionable and veers into seeming even more like a generalization.

I thought we’d decided “not all X” arguments were inadmissible?

not all Hacker News posters are full of shit? Help out, I'm kinda lost now.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#116

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:01 AM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #30

jrochkind1 wrote: post #22

You mean exactly how sex workers said it would, but nobody listened to them, because it was never actually about protecting sex workers or victims of sex trafficking? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sex-workers-bill-fosta-sesta_... https://medium.com/voices/while-america-gawks-at-stormy-dani...

It was so infuriating to watch Democrats willingly get played by the religious right into supporting something that was so blatantly designed to legislate morality rather than actually help victims of trafficking. Glad that elected officials are now rethinking it, at least.

It seems to be a universal phenomenon (I see similar trends in many European countries, including mine) and I wouldn't use the word "played". The left seems to be as keen on legislating morality as the right.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#117

Post by thundergolfer » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:01 AM UTC

0xBA5ED wrote: post #99

Thorentis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> designed to legislate morality Like... almost all other laws? Do you think murder is immoral? Well guess what? There's a law for that. Just because you disagree with the morality being legislated, you can't pretend that "legislating morality" is the problem.

My guess is "legislating morality" refers to pushing legislation based solely on moral concerns. There are other reasons to outlaw murder than just morality.

All those other concerns bear out as moral concerns.

Much legislation is technocratic and hides its moralism, but it’s all questions of right and wrong, good and bad, at the end of the day.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#118

Post by olau » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:04 AM UTC

pergadad wrote: post #114

nullifidian wrote: post #74

It's important to note that whenever trafficking is discussed , in 95% of cases it's going to be about consensual prostitution between adults. Anti-sex activists have been successful at attacking the vocabulary. "But anti-prostitution activists like Hughes often use “sexual exploitation” to include any kind of prostitution or sex work—in fact, Hughes insists in her article that "trafficking occurs even if the woman c…

95% seems like an awfully wrong guess. There is a lot of forced prostitution, then a huge great area of those that for various reasons have no other option (from abusive boyfriend to immigration status to economic factors) and then a very small crust of voluntary sex workers, mostly at the high-end of the market. The ratio between these three will vary massively between country/region/city but in any case it is often…

Could you cite sources for these claims?

The numbers I've seen are opposite to what you claim, and seemed to indicate that a lot of the "trafficking" is actually people traveling to another country for a while to earn (relatively) easy money without risking getting stigmatized by people they know.

You can see sort of the same thing play out without the stigmatization with carpenters and similar coming from low-wage countries. They'll generally have worse working conditions than local carpenters (if for nothing else being away from their families), but still come for the opportunities.

I do think the stigmatization makes it a difficult subject.

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#119

Post by misnome » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #86

jniedrauer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are always outliers with strange opinions in any sufficiently large movement, but a much more common feminist position is to be strongly in support of sex workers rights and safety.

I can just point to Sweden. The meaning of prostitution has change in the public discussed to be the same as rape, regardless of consent. Being pro-prostitution here is the same as being pro-rape which is very anti-feminist in eye of the Swedish public and people with such views are seen as far-right. The two arguments that people here use is that a person that do sex for money would not had done so voluntary, thus t…

How do either of the arguments not apply to every single job or task that anyone does for renumeration? I would not do my job without being paid, therefore I am being forced to work against my will?

Re: Stamping Out Online Sex Trafficking May Have Pushed It Underground

#120

Post by miracle2k » Thu, Dec 19, 2019, 11:15 AM UTC

pergadad wrote: post #114

nullifidian wrote: post #74

It's important to note that whenever trafficking is discussed , in 95% of cases it's going to be about consensual prostitution between adults. Anti-sex activists have been successful at attacking the vocabulary. "But anti-prostitution activists like Hughes often use “sexual exploitation” to include any kind of prostitution or sex work—in fact, Hughes insists in her article that "trafficking occurs even if the woman c…

95% seems like an awfully wrong guess. There is a lot of forced prostitution, then a huge great area of those that for various reasons have no other option (from abusive boyfriend to immigration status to economic factors) and then a very small crust of voluntary sex workers, mostly at the high-end of the market. The ratio between these three will vary massively between country/region/city but in any case it is often…

Yes, the world is complex, but OPs argument is pretty specific: That anti-trafficking rhetoric and anti-prostitution activism is largely overlapping, that it denies, by and large, the very gray areas you refer to, that it conflates the idea of consensual sex work with trafficking, and in the process has little regard for either consensual sex workers or sex trafficking victims.

> Are the African ladies prostituting themselves in Italy doing so voluntarily when they are afraid of voodoo curses? Is the meth addict doing it voluntarily? Is the girl that can't afford her daughter's diabetes medication by any other 'job' doing so voluntarily?

The first case is distinct because it's a real case of illicit external force. For the other two, it's worth pointing out that in the US, the baseline is still "arrest", "criminal charges", and "publishing your name and picture online". This happens with the silent consent of both the US public as well as anti-trafficking activists, who neither speak out against this kind of policing, nor stop cooperating with police departments.

The life of a woman needing to pay for diabetes medication for her daughter does not not improve by being arrested, nor does she welcome her source of income disappearing because of restrictive laws.

Have a look at local news reports of "anti-trafficking stings". It's always the same story. Dozens unnamed woman arrested, rarely even a claim that a victim was identified; and OP is right; the definition of what counts as trafficking is wide enough that even in those cases where it is claimed that a victim was found, it needs to be questioned whether the person actually welcomed the rescue.