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Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

theguardian.com

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Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#91

Post by badpun »

aalleavitch wrote: post #85
sooheon wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gives you this certainty?

Because the medicalization of depression is a convenient way to avoid thinking about the fact that it is a prominent feature of the status quo, not some aberration. Pollution correlates with industrial manufacturing and warehouse work environments and crushing poverty that forces people to live in a manner consistent with economic efficiency rather than with human happiness and well-being. Long work hours and little…

> crushing poverty

My grandma lived in what essentially was a pre-industrial society. She lived in crushing poverty (i.e. being hungry most of the time). Then, our country industrialized and she was never hungry again.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#92

Post by tomrod »

sooheon wrote: post #90
tomrod wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bayesian priors, I reckon.

This is begging the question, which priors are strong enough to merit “certainty” in the face of opposing evidence?

Fair critique, as the GP didn't say certainty but my response was pre-supposed. I would say that we don't have a well-founded, commonly known model linking air pollution and depression. However their confounding experience through poverty is accepted and easily understood.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#94

Post by sooheon »

tomrod wrote: post #92
sooheon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is begging the question, which priors are strong enough to merit “certainty” in the face of opposing evidence?

Fair critique, as the GP didn't say certainty but my response was pre-supposed. I would say that we don't have a well-founded, commonly known model linking air pollution and depression. However their confounding experience through poverty is accepted and easily understood.

My bad, I read “confidence” and put “certainty” in their mouth. I can agree other already understood factors exist, and may confound the problem. But confounding != negation. And the health effects of air pollution are well understood and bad enough that denying the link from pollution -> depression is equivalent to denying link from bad health -> depression.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#95

Post by throwawaylolx »

aalleavitch wrote: post #76

I'm pretty confident that depression is not a result of air pollution, but rather that both air pollution and depression are results of industrialization. The problem is not chemical. The problem is how we live.

How would you know this without any reliable data regarding pre-industrialization depression levels? Maybe depressed people congregate around urban areas, seeking fulfilment or acceptance, or any other explanation.

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#96

Post by aalleavitch »

sooheon wrote: post #86
aalleavitch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the medicalization of depression is a convenient way to avoid thinking about the fact that it is a prominent feature of the status quo, not some aberration. Pollution correlates with industrial manufacturing and warehouse work environments and crushing poverty that forces people to live in a manner consistent with economic efficiency rather than with human happiness and well-being. Long work hours and little…

I agree that depression is a serious and systemic problem, but I don't see why that invalidates medical inquiry into physical causes as well. We can study a problem from multiple angles, because we're merely trying to understand better. Everything you said about depression is bad, and 24/7 smog is also a bad thing which may lead to depression, one does not preclude the other from being factual.

I don't disagree in principle with the idea that the physical aspects of/influences on depression are worth studying.

I do, however, think the overall approach we are taking towards depression as a society is fundamentally backwards. We have a massive industry that is focused around producing psychiatric medication so that people can more effectively operate in the society we've structured around them, but we didn't even stop to consider the idea that maybe it is the systems we've built around them that are pathological in themselves.

We have this basic notion that if someone doesn't fit in with this social mold we've built that it must be a fault in them, it must be a sickness they suffer from that prevents them from thriving in the ways we expect them to. But why are we not asking ourselves whether the square hole that we are trying to shove their round peg into isn't the problem in itself? Why do we think we are helpless to change things on a systemic level? We grate against the idea that the world we've built might be a bad fit for us, and not the other way around.

Instead, we have pathologized what is an entirely natural reaction to the world people live in. We think we need medication to make humans fit better into this system, but really it is the system that is failing us. We built this world for us to live in, why did we make it so incredibly hostile to human happiness?

Re: Depression and suicide linked to air pollution in new global study

#98

Post by aalleavitch »

badpun wrote: post #91
aalleavitch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the medicalization of depression is a convenient way to avoid thinking about the fact that it is a prominent feature of the status quo, not some aberration. Pollution correlates with industrial manufacturing and warehouse work environments and crushing poverty that forces people to live in a manner consistent with economic efficiency rather than with human happiness and well-being. Long work hours and little…

> crushing poverty My grandma lived in what essentially was a pre-industrial society. She lived in crushing poverty (i.e. being hungry most of the time). Then, our country industrialized and she was never hungry again.

I won't disagree with this, I'm sure that what your grandma struggled through was difficult. I wouldn't argue for us going back to pre-industrial society. Technology can be a massive unadulterated good when it is applied correctly to our problems.

That doesn't mean, however, that the way we live doesn't desperately need to be improved upon. We may have lost hunger but we gained depression. Maybe we should be lucky to die of suicide rather than to starve, but I think we can and should try to build a world where we don't have to do either.

EDIT: I also want to add that debt is an entirely different but very real and horrible kind of crushing poverty. People in debt have their basic needs met, but they are slaves to a number they carry over their heads, often for the rest of their lives. I can't honestly say that is always a better life than to be free to do what you want even if you must constantly contend with hunger.

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