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Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

backreaction.blogspot.com

191–200 of 209 posts

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#191
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Measurements cause it to occur. Ok, but what's the objective physical distinction between a measurement and a non-measurement? > What causes entanglement to occur? Various specific kinds of normal physical interactions, the details of which are an established part of QM. > After the measurement I’m not in a superposition of the two entangled states but in one of the two What would you expect to be different if you…

> Ok, but what's the objective physical distinction between a measurement and a non-measurement? Various specific kinds of measuring devices the details of which are an established part of QM. > Various specific kinds of normal physical interactions, the details of which are an established part of QM. So, which is the interaction that causes entanglement? I was asking for this before. > What would you expect to be di…

> Various specific kinds of measuring devices the details of which are an established part of QM.

They're not though. There's no generally accepted definition of what is and isn't a measuring device. And, as per the quantum eraser experiment, the exact same equipment might be considered as a measuring device or not a measuring device, depending on what happens in the future.

> So, which is the interaction that causes entanglement? I was asking for this before.

The only fully accurate answer is "look at the Schrodinger equation". But, broadly, interacting with an object in superposition in a way that depends on that superposition will cause entanglement. For example, if a particle's spin is in superposition, another particle interacting it in a spin-dependent way will cause entanglement, but interacting with it in a spin-independent way will not create an entanglement.

I appreciate that this must sound exactly as vague as the definition of a measurement. But for those familiar with QM it really isn't. If you look at textbooks, even those written from a Copenhagenist point of view, they're very clear on which physical circumstances give rise to entanglement and which don't. If you go through any undergrad-level QM textbook you'll have a clear understanding of what entanglement is and isn't.

> Well, I would expect my measurement to also have all possible outcomes given by the superposition.

Ok, but what would the subjective experience of that look like?

> Only after a one of the entangled particles is measured. Either my brain must be measured or the result must be measured. In this sense entanglement doesn’t work without an ill defined concept of measurement either.

Not true. Just by looking at the wavefunction, one can see that the wavefunction is a superposition of two distinct Everett branches that don't interact with each other - not because of some mysterious "collapse" phenomenon, but just as an emergent property of that actual wavefunction. Finding yourself in one specific branch is somewhat mysterious, but each individual branch being consistent with itself and not interacting with any other branch is absolutely normal QM.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So: e is the basis giving rise to a group homomorphism between (R,+) and the unit circumference. That is: e is inherently trigonometric. Not irrelevant.

e is related to the complex numbers through trigonometry. And pi is related to trigonometry more directly than that. But e and pi are not related to each other; "being related" isn't transitive like that. Consider correlations. A correlation is necessarily "transitive" if the correlation values are very, very close to ±1, and not otherwise. If a correlates with b at 0.7, and b correlates with c at 0.68, the correlati…

correlations are not a good analogy, homomorphisms often preserve desirable properties or relationships.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#193
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ok, but what's the objective physical distinction between a measurement and a non-measurement? Various specific kinds of measuring devices the details of which are an established part of QM. > Various specific kinds of normal physical interactions, the details of which are an established part of QM. So, which is the interaction that causes entanglement? I was asking for this before. > What would you expect to be di…

> Various specific kinds of measuring devices the details of which are an established part of QM. They're not though. There's no generally accepted definition of what is and isn't a measuring device. And, as per the quantum eraser experiment, the exact same equipment might be considered as a measuring device or not a measuring device, depending on what happens in the future. > So, which is the interaction that causes…

> But, broadly, interacting with an object in superposition in a way that depends on that superposition will cause entanglement.

This doesn't explain the cause of entanglement. It just explains the circumstances under which entanglement occurs.

> I appreciate that this must sound exactly as vague as the definition of a measurement

That's because it is beyond the mathematics.

> But for those familiar with QM it really isn't.

This is not true. I'm familiar with QM and it is vague to me.

>they're very clear on which physical circumstances give rise to entanglement

But, none explain the cause of entanglement. Just as none explains the cause of collapse of a wave function which is called a measurement.

> Ok, but what would the subjective experience of that look like?

I wouldn't know, because it's not what can be experienced. Some folks argue this is exactly what makes many worlds unscientific.

> Just by looking at the wavefunction,

Interesting. What kind of microscope are you using to look at wave functions? Or do you mean at the mathematical expression of the wavefunction? I'm not arguing that decorherence theories are mathematically sound and a neat theory. I'm just challenging that they offer some physical explanations beyond Copenhagen. They just take the unexplained things and replace them with other unexplained things.

> emergent property

Another empty word.

> Finding yourself in one specific branch is somewhat mysterious

Yes. And if you think about it, this is the same mystery which makes Copenhagen so unsatisfactory, just put into a different framework.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the explanation. It really is non-intuitive and hard to get especially just from informal texts. What I don't get at all is the bit about quantum entanglement not carrying any information. Apparently, that has to do something with the fact that the collapse of the wave function is a random process? But, if you have probability then you have information, yes? What's the explanation?

I don't know the full maths behind it, but the most important aspect is that you can only perform one measurement on the superposition state - after your first measurement, the particle acquires a definite state, and any subsequent measurements are guaranteed to show that same state. If you are the first one to measure the state of any of the pair of entangled particles, your measurement will cause both particles to…

Thanks.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#195
post #64
post #9

I just finished reading her book, today. Rock on, Sabine! Anything that makes believers in Free Will or Consciousness unhappy makes me happy.

I'm super curious about people who make this claim. Are you not conscious? The idea that there are people walking around who look and act like everybody else but behind the eyes there is nothing is terrifying and exhilarating to me. I'm open to the idea that when you observe yourself there is nothing looking back at you, but that doesn't generalize the necessarily subjective experience.

Are you asking me?

Obviously we all experience what we call consciousness, noticing ourselves noticing, and we all imagine we have free will, which really only means we don't know what we will do tomorrow.

But neither of those have anything to do with physics, except to the degree that the stuff we are made out of runs according to physics.

So, anybody supposing that either concept has anything to do with quantum physics is barking up something that is not even a tree.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#196
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bell's theorem does not rely on that.

Can you explain how? Wikipedia states: >With the measurements oriented at intermediate angles between these basic cases, the existence of local hidden variables could agree with/would be consistent with a linear dependence of the correlation in the angle but, according to Bell's inequality (see below), could not agree with the dependence predicted by quantum mechanical theory, namely, that the correlation is the nega…

What that sentence says is: Bell's theorem predicts the linear dependence of the correlations angles - or at least it's consistent with such a model. It's not an assumption of the theory.

Also keep in mind we don't observe linear correlations - at least one of the assumptions of Bell's theorem must be wrong.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#197
post #7

I've always been mystified at why people take superdeterminism as a good explanation for anything, when it actually acts as a stopsign for thought. For example, suppose I am betting with you on the outcomes of a coin toss. You call heads, the coin comes up tails, you give me some money. You call tails, the coin comes up heads, you give me some more money. This repeats a number of times. The common sense response is t…

>I've always been mystified at why people take superdeterminism as a good explanation for anything, when it actually acts as a stopsign for thought.

What? It's like the opposite...

Currently we don't have a perfect model for quantum physics, so what do we do when we try to create a model of something where we have data for, but we don't fully understand? We use statistics and probabilities to fit/approximate the behavior behind the model. Doing this can lead to a useful but imperfect model, but that doesn't prove one way or another that the behavior of what we're trying to understand is inherently random, just that it exhibits random behavior at some level or in some way.

Now the opposite: saying things like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is full stop proven, is itself a stop sign for thought IMO. Whereas opposing such principles, and assuming behavior isn't inherently random (i.e. the idea behind determinism), opens for testable ideas on what might actually happening behind the apparent randomness of the model. You know... one which might lead to a perfect model fully explaining the behavior (which hey isn't that the purpose of science??)

To put it backwards... the ideal in science is a model that explains how everything works, if this is ever realized it'll prove superdeterminism. To say stuff is inherently random, to me is equivalent to giving up and settling for less than the ideal...

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#198
post #197
post #7

I've always been mystified at why people take superdeterminism as a good explanation for anything, when it actually acts as a stopsign for thought. For example, suppose I am betting with you on the outcomes of a coin toss. You call heads, the coin comes up tails, you give me some money. You call tails, the coin comes up heads, you give me some more money. This repeats a number of times. The common sense response is t…

>I've always been mystified at why people take superdeterminism as a good explanation for anything, when it actually acts as a stopsign for thought. What? It's like the opposite... Currently we don't have a perfect model for quantum physics, so what do we do when we try to create a model of something where we have data for, but we don't fully understand? We use statistics and probabilities to fit/approximate the beha…

I must not have put this clearly, because I've gotten piled on by 50 comments, but: there is nothing wrong with trying to find a deterministic explanation for QM. Lots of people are working on that. Superdeterministism is very very very very very different!

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#199
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but in order to actually explain the results of existing experiments superdeterministically, this "implicate" order must be vast. It has to link the results of spin measurements, coin flips, radioactive decays halfway across the world, and the twinkling of the light from a long-dead star, all of which are sources of apparent randomness used together in experiments. All of this has to work in concert. If that rea…

nonsense, that's saying that no kind of science based on probabilities could survive because it's difficult to run a deterministic experiment. if that was the case then things like climate science, atmospheric science and meteorology would be unable to exist in the first place.

Once again, the "superdeterminism" promoted here is a very very very very very different thing from either ordinary determinism or ordinary probability. You're like the 50th person to reply to me in exactly this way.

Re: Superdeterminism: The path we didn’t take

#200
post #87
post #7

I've always been mystified at why people take superdeterminism as a good explanation for anything, when it actually acts as a stopsign for thought. For example, suppose I am betting with you on the outcomes of a coin toss. You call heads, the coin comes up tails, you give me some money. You call tails, the coin comes up heads, you give me some more money. This repeats a number of times. The common sense response is t…

Is this a proper understanding of superdeterminism? I may be totally off base but my understanding is the analogy is more like Craps. Two dice with fair odds create an uneven distribution such that 7 is more common. The dice have "conspired" to bring 7 up more often than 2 because their states interact in a non-linear way.

No, not at all. That is a simple consequence of ordinary probability theory that is used in almost all interpretations of quantum mechanics. As I said, superdeterminism is much much much more radical.

Here is a more appropriate analogy. Suppose I'm playing a shell game with you and you have to guess where the prize is. You guess the wrong position a million times in a row. Something analogous to this happens when we try to test quantum mechanics. Other interpretations of quantum mechanics explain this by saying, e.g. that the prize doesn't have a definite position to begin with, so the act of checking where it is can't be interpreted as just revealing a preexisting fact. The superdeterministic explanation is: "well, there's nothing to explain. You were simply determined to lose by the initial conditions of the universe. It couldn't have gone any other way."

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