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A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

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Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#151

Post by deogeo »

zaccus wrote: post #136
deogeo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The present state of migration is also a modern phenomenon - otherwise, countries wouldn't be trending from more towards less homogeneous, but would already be in a 'steady state'.

Not true. People have been migrating from place to place for all of recorded history. Cultural homogeneity is nothing more than a "good ole days" fallacy; it's never really been a thing anywhere, except in the most remote parts of the world.

Look at the "Population by country of birth 1900-2016" graph for Sweden [1]. It is at ~100% in 1900, and ~82% in 2016.

The US went from 87.9% white in 1900, to 72.4% in 2010 [2]. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such demographic histories for other countries. But search for "US/Europe becoming more diverse", and you'll find countless articles, from mainstream publications, asserting this. So to claim otherwise is extremely fringe.

And there is mathematically no way for a place to be becoming more diverse, while keeping historically constant migration. If the migration hadn't changed in some way, then it would already be diverse. It also means that, if it's becoming more diverse, that it was less diverse, i.e. more homogeneous, in the past.

Looking at the present, China is 91.6% ethnically Han [3], and Hungary is 93.5% ethnically Hungarian [4]. So unless you think China or Hungary or US in 1900-1970 are "the most remote parts of the world", then no, homogeneity is provably not a fallacy.

So yes, "People have been migrating from place to place for all of recorded history", but both the rate and nature of this migration changed, and just a quick glance at the headlines of virtually any news source is enough to tell you this.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Sweden#History

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#152

Post by deogeo »

take_a_breath wrote: post #150
deogeo wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else would you call DACA, sanctuary cities, or the proposed amnesty for illegal immigrants, then? Eventually, they or their children become citizens, which is little different from the policy you claim literally no one is proposing.

==Eventually, they or their children become citizens, which is little different from the policy you claim literally no one is proposing.== Literally none of those are "giving citizenship to everyone who wants it". To take your eventually example to the next step, if their children's children have kids on US soil, they will automatically be US citizens. By your logic, the existing US Constitution is "little different"…

The key difference is the existing constitution doesn't say those without citizenship must be allowed to enter or stay.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#153

Post by take_a_breath »

deogeo wrote: post #152
take_a_breath wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==Eventually, they or their children become citizens, which is little different from the policy you claim literally no one is proposing.== Literally none of those are "giving citizenship to everyone who wants it". To take your eventually example to the next step, if their children's children have kids on US soil, they will automatically be US citizens. By your logic, the existing US Constitution is "little different"…

The key difference is the existing constitution doesn't say those without citizenship must be allowed to enter or stay.

Which is why they apply for asylum, a process enshrined in the US Code.

8 U.S. Code § 1158. Asylum Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.

=https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#154

Post by danharaj »

deogeo wrote: post #151
zaccus wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. People have been migrating from place to place for all of recorded history. Cultural homogeneity is nothing more than a "good ole days" fallacy; it's never really been a thing anywhere, except in the most remote parts of the world.

Look at the "Population by country of birth 1900-2016" graph for Sweden [1]. It is at ~100% in 1900, and ~82% in 2016. The US went from 87.9% white in 1900, to 72.4% in 2010 [2]. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such demographic histories for other countries. But search for "US/Europe becoming more diverse", and you'll find countless articles, from mainstream publications, asserting this. So to claim otherwise is extre…

You realize civilization is older than 120 years right?

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#155

Post by deogeo »

danharaj wrote: post #154
deogeo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the "Population by country of birth 1900-2016" graph for Sweden [1]. It is at ~100% in 1900, and ~82% in 2016. The US went from 87.9% white in 1900, to 72.4% in 2010 [2]. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such demographic histories for other countries. But search for "US/Europe becoming more diverse", and you'll find countless articles, from mainstream publications, asserting this. So to claim otherwise is extre…

You realize civilization is older than 120 years right?

So your thesis is ~100 years ago was some freak historical period when countries were mostly homogeneous (compared to current day. Please don't cite e.g. Czechs and Slovaks living in the same country as diversity comparable to current day), but throughout the rest of history, diversity was much greater.

Do you have sources to back this up? And how did those countries become homogeneous, then?

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#156

Post by deogeo »

take_a_breath wrote: post #153
deogeo wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference is the existing constitution doesn't say those without citizenship must be allowed to enter or stay.

Which is why they apply for asylum, a process enshrined in the US Code. 8 U.S. Code § 1158. Asylum Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply f…

Which is irrelevant to the policies I mentioned that started this subthread.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#157

Post by Erlich_Bachman »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #85
aazaa wrote: post #81

The article links to the original source: https://freedomonthemove.org Scrolling down, one sees an ad from none other than Thomas Jefferson: > In Alberale, a Mulatto slave called Sandy, about 35 years of age, his stature is rather low, including to corpulence, and his complexion light; he is a shoemaker by trade, in which he uses his left hand principally, and is something of a horse jockey; ... Whoever conveys the s…

Jefferson’s and Washington’s psychology was certainly very interesting as far as their attitudes towards freedom and slavery went. I wonder how they justified to themselves having slaves while talking about freedom and liberty. But we do the same today. A lot of us have pretty unsustainable lifestyles as far as the environment goes but we make ourselves feel good (or even superior to others) by adding a little bit of…

> I wonder how they justified to themselves having slaves while talking about freedom and liberty.

Isn't it pretty clear and straight-forward? It was based on the beliefs (regardless of the degree to which you might think from your perspective that those beliefs accurately represent reality or not) that many people held back then that there are significant racial differences between slaves and people, and the same rules do not apply to white ones as to black ones because they are not the same species, they do not have the same brains/possibilities/rights/etc. Just like they did not grant any freedom to animals or trees.

However much one might disagree with the basic premise of the racist argument, it does not make it a hypocricy freedom-wise. If someone was holding these racist beliefs in this past USA (and many of them did) - they could very well believe in freedom of all people, and at the same time not consider the slaves "people" based on their racist beliefs that there are actual important and significat differences between those races.

Just because someone treats someone else badly doesn't automatically make it a hypocricy, the world is just more complicated than that and there are plenty of examples of violence or exploitation being based on well established logical thought systems or even ethical (from the point of view of the exploiter) beliefs. And this is important because if you want to make a change in a society, you might benefit from understanding how that society actually thinks and what ideology is behind it. Just calling it a hypocricy is not good enough.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#158

Post by Erlich_Bachman »

carapace wrote: post #144
aazaa wrote: post #81

The article links to the original source: https://freedomonthemove.org Scrolling down, one sees an ad from none other than Thomas Jefferson: > In Alberale, a Mulatto slave called Sandy, about 35 years of age, his stature is rather low, including to corpulence, and his complexion light; he is a shoemaker by trade, in which he uses his left hand principally, and is something of a horse jockey; ... Whoever conveys the s…

I remember being blown away by a line from a Civil War document, a letter or diary of a Southern officer, talking about the units of the Northern army made up of Black people. He wrote something like, "If [black people] can be good soldiers that throws into question our whole theory of slavery." They had a "theory of slavery"... That's what blew me away. This officer wasn't evil , or stupid, he was the product (or ev…

Well what did you expect to find instead? That they just randomly assigned some people as slaves, that they instated this system throughout the country, without ever thinking about it? Of course there were justifications and theories and established rules etc. Of course these people weren't randomly just evil or stupid - such people do not organize. There is always a system.

Re: A Database of Fugitive Slave Ads Reveals Thousands of Untold Stories (2018)

#159

Post by [deleted] »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #17
larnmar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your conclusion is “well obviously, the people of the future will share my ethics” then you’re missing the point of the exercise. The point of the exercise is humility — to think about how people in the future might think your ethics are wrong and evil — not arrogance.

Ethic shifts don't come out of the blue; they start as a growing sentiment within a population, which at some point (whether through growth or things being shaken up by e.g. war) reaches critical mass.

[deleted]
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