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Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

uncontactedtribes.org

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Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#291
post #257
post #106

As far as the argument of contact or no contact, I don't have an answer but I think the issue is that contact often destroys the culture rather than helps it grow and evolve. I have read some things that indicated native americans lost in part because they adopted guns and abandoned bows. They lacked the means to make or money to buy the type of oil that would work in cold weather and used lard instead, which firms u…

Lawrence of Arabia? Might as well cite Tarzan comics.

Lawrence of Arabia is a historical figure and I did a college paper on him. He accomplished amazing things in the real world in terms of helping the Arabs achieve their independence. The Arabs were a relatively "primitive" (tribal) people compared to the English who sought to rule them. The film is based on real events. Like most such films, it is part documentary, part fiction/drama. He was famous enough during his life to have been followed around by a journalist. The journalist provided both actual documentation of Lawrence's activities (through film and photos) but also hyped it, so not all of that information is really accurate. Some themes in the movie are relevant to the discussion here:

The Arabs keep wanting British artillery as The Answer. The British don't want to give it to them because they want to keep the Arabs under their thumb. (Note: Like with American Natives, they apparently saw "guns" as a source of power and wanted them completely out of context -- unable to manufacture them themselves and so on.)

Lawrence tells the Arabs that he thinks their traditional ways are their source of power -- that riding camels through the desert like they did historically is the way to have power equivalent to British power. At the time, Britain was a Naval power and he compares the camels to ships and the desert to the ocean.

I cannot verify whether or not Lawrence ever said that but it is historical fact that he rode with Arab irregulars and that such troops traveled by camel. It is also historical fact that he took Aqaba, a key port city, with a force of only 40 men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Revolt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._E._Lawrence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_of_Arabia_(film)

Here is an actual quote of the man which agrees with the gist of what I am saying and from a reputable source:

Do not try to do too much with your own hands. Better the Arabs do it tolerably than that you do it perfectly. It is their war, and you are to help them, not to win it for them. Actually, also, under the very odd conditions of Arabia, your practical work will not be as good as, perhaps, you think it is.

http://telawrence.info/telawrenceinfo/life/biog_quotes.shtml

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#292

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

How do you know they are uncivilized? I think you are making assumptions.

If they are civilized... I know of at least one old-fashioned civilized culture relatively estranged from Western influence that seems to be doing well, at least in some regards: http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/longevity/page/2

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#293
I find it extremely disgusting. There's nothing wrong with contacting others. Everyday I'm contacted by lots of people: colleagues, marketers, head hunters etc. They give me choice. Let members of the tribe enjoy the same freedoms. Stop treating them like animals in a ZOO.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#294
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery.

On the other hand, can they even make an informed decision?

I mean, heck, we let the FDA make decisions for us every day. 99.9% of us are not chemist or biologist enough to make a real decision on many consumables and drugs, so we let the more informed make that call

It's true, there's a whole mess of slippery ground around this subject, but is it actually ethical to allow someone to make a choice if they cannot fully comprehend the ramifications etc? (honest question)

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#295
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not kidding. You are posting a very typical left wing way of thinking where you have a hard time believing people can both exist and fundamentally disagree with you. You hope they don't really mean it, or at least they are Christians so you have something unintellectual to blame (I am not). You are advocating some kind of "tolerance" of primitive cultures (consisting largely of non-intervention which is rather d…

Very typical left wing way of thinking? I'm staying out of this slugfest because there's no way anybody will end up edified by it - but in what possible way can you characterize philosophical intolerance as an exclusively left-wing trait? That's just weird.

Because he sees himself as right-wing, so anyone disagreeing must be a socialist; therefore he's falling in the very trap he warned his opponent of. Funnily recursive indeed.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

How do you know they are uncivilized? I think you are making assumptions. If they are civilized... I know of at least one old-fashioned civilized culture relatively estranged from Western influence that seems to be doing well, at least in some regards: http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/longevity/page/2

Excerpt:

Their incidence rate is at or near zero in just about every category, including diabetes, vascular disease, and colorectal cancer. Age seems to have no effect on them, either: The Tarahumara runner who won the 1993 Leadville ultramarathon was 55 years old. Plus, their supernatural invulnerability isn't just limited to their bodies; the Tarahumara have mastered the secret of happiness as well, living as benignly as bodhisattvas in a world free of theft, murder, suicide, and cruelty.

Great article. Thanks so much for sharing. Very relevant for me, I mean to my life (as I get well when doctors say it cannot be done -- and I live without a car and walk a lot).

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#297
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

"BTW: you to know that Western medicine is not the only medicine in the world. " First off, can we not call it "Western medicine?" Because what you're calling "Western medicine" happens to be practiced all over the world. I'd prefer to call it "science-based medicine" or "evidence-based medicine", although I will admit the applicability of those labels is more range-based than absolute. However, you're right. Western…

Actually, I've pursued "alternative" medicine for treating my (very deadly) medical condition and gotten much better results than "modern" medicine can promise. I have a form of cystic fibrosis, as does my 23 year old son. I have gotten off 8 or 9 prescription drugs. I have not been on antibiotics for about 7 years. I have been drug free for about 18 months. My son has not been on antibiotics in nearly 13 years. He has been drug free for about 4 years. Ten years ago, I was bedridden for 3 1/2 months and spent a year at death's door. Doctor's told me "People like you don't get well. Symptom management is the name of the game." I currently live without a car, thus walk a lot, and have a full-time job. The hole in my lung has closed and my symptoms have basically all disappeared or greatly improved.

Modern medicine has it's good points. But a lot of other traditions also have value. I think it is unproductive and a straw-man argument to pit them against each other. I don't see why we can't take from both and build something better than either.

I've been trying to stay out of the comments in this thread about medicine because I'm basically one lone "nutcase" who is dismissed by most folks in the CF community. So you can either believe I am telling the truth or not. I really don't have a leg to stand on if you choose to think I am making up tall tales, as many people think.

(And I hope you will take my post as a compliment, as a statement that you seem like a reasonable person who might listen, rather than as "argumentative" or attacking.)

Peace.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

“If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.” -- Stephen Hawking The truth, in both theory and practice, is that there is no pure, fair sharing of technology. It always, in nearly every single situation throughout world history, has ended in blood, subjugation, and/or slavery. And, it likely…

> The truth, in both theory and practice, is that there is no pure, fair sharing of technology. It always, in nearly every single situation throughout world history, has ended in blood, subjugation, and/or slavery. And, it likely always will.

However this always happened between social apes. E.T. aliens probably would be completely different from us (see "Ender's game" for instance) and may very well act in different ways and follow different motivations. So we don't know, really.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I expect thats how it would be handled here (although "granting an exception" to the Constitution could get tricky, depending on the timeline in this hypothetical). What I really meant (and I wasn't very clear on this) was more of how could we ethically reconcile our laws with our desire, if we have one, to preserve such tribes. For the most part it seems like if you have to special-case something you're doing…

Some of these tribes are even cannibals, they kill people and eat them. Should we turn a blind eye to that too? I don't know. It's a hard question.

There are several ways to anthropophagy, endogamous (eating your ancestors) and exogamous (eating your enemies). Most cannibals tribes are of the first kind, until some external pressure brings them to eat their enemies : - rise of slave trades may have pushed African tribes into exogenous cannibalism; - extreme scarcity of proteins source and population growth may be the cause of cannibalism in Papua.

In any case, as Montaigne famously said more than 400 years ago, they would find our way of treating our dead relatives (or enemies) incredibly cruel and barbaric, letting them rot in the ground instead of giving them the proper grave their souls call for in our own bodies?

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#300
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are much less invasive options for contact than colonialism. Nobody said we have to move ourselves into some indigenous peoples' lands in order to offer them the chance to accept or reject a modern life.

But the effect is the same - their society would be absorbed, and probably forgotten. It's like time travel - you can't go back because you don't know what kind of effects you'll have on the future. In this case you don't know what kind of effects contact will have on their (the tribe's) future.

So how about Japan for example? Do you think contact with the west was bad for them?
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