When will the Netherlands disappear? • Hacker News Board

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#121

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #43

mosselman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because some people are shitting in their kitchen, it isn't a bad idea to do so as well? On a more serious note though, much of the agriculture in the Netherlands is the production of meat, especially pork, for export. This is by far the biggest source of pollution. I'd rather live with less animal farmers and more Natura2000 areas than the other way around.

Do you agree that your analogy is very very far fetched? If the analogy would hold up just a little bit, all this nature already would have perished, right? This is about the subtle opinion of some green leaning people who think it is not the 'right' nature which is growing in the Natura2000 areas right know. Nothing catastrophic, just a purely intellectual debate.

Well there are many important differences between plants and animals so... sounds like they have a reasonable basis for concern.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#122

Post by paulddraper » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

OmegaBlight wrote: post #115

blunte wrote: post #23

I find it a bit ironic given the MIT climate simulator on HN yesterday - the biggest impact (in that simulator) to climate change was the land/agriculture methane. Right now the Dutch farmers are again harassing the country with their tractors on public roads, angry about what they feel is undue pressure to reduce their emissions. Maybe they'll get one or two more generations of farming as they hasten their own demis…

It can be quite difficult to blame the Dutch farmers for something that involves the decisions of people all around the world. At this point they may be better to get as rich as possible so that they can weather the pain of climate change better.

This, but repeated everywhere.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#123

Post by olau » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

eecc wrote: post #87

blunte wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Dutch export most of their food and turn around and import cheaper food from far away (Spain and Brazil being two common sources). Check it out at the grocery store sometime. It's not so easy to find the nice Dutch produce (the Germans are enjoying it!)

Italian immigrant here: let me tell you something. NL may cultivate and export the most mass of agricultural products, but there’s nothing the lit greenhouses you see taking off from Schiphol can do to best the sun scorching the skin of a tomato growing in Puglia. The metabolism it has to crank up 200% to defend against such constant environmental aggression is something irrepetable you can smell and taste.

This is the reason I've stopped buying red peppers in the summer when the local super market starts importing them from Netherlands. In the winter, they import them from Spain. The quality difference is staggering.

My own country is also great at mass producing poor quality food in the sense of taste - in other terms of look, feel and uniformity it's great.

I'm not convinced they couldn't produce great taste in Netherlands, though, if they put their mind to it. I think it's more of a bug in the market mechanisms. But it's depressing for sure. I root for the day small-scale shipping is automated and solved for good, and then I can be the one deciding who I'm buying peppers from.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#124

Post by wainstead » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #92

jacquesm wrote: post #37

It won't. NL has been preparing quite hard for a rise in sea level and/or worse storms. The port of IJmuiden is being overhauled, the shoreline defenses have all been raised, in some places only about 3 ft, in others much more depending on the likelihood of flooding. A bigger problem is that during an extended period of high water that the rivers won't be able to drain into the North Sea and studies are being made on…

I may be biased because I live in the NL and I live slightly below sea level. But I would be more worried to live on the coast somewhere else that has no history of dealing with these kinds of problems. In some sense The Netherlands is the only country on the planet to have the political structures in place to deal with rising sea waters. What do people think Florida is going to do? They're already losing their drink…

> What do people think Florida is going to do? They're already losing their drinking water and they're still in denial.

> Build pumps, dikes and create flood plains.

Just want to point out this approach won't work for Florida (and I'm not implying you said it would). The land in south Florida is porous limestone, and the water will just pass under any dykes you build.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#125

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #53

teekert wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if us Dutch people stop shitting in our kitchen, we import food from other countries shitting in their kitchen, plus we now have extra fuel to burn to get the food here.

We are the biggest exporter of agricultural products after the US, which is insane given the size of our country: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2019/01/18/neder... There is no need to import food, we could just start exporting less.

Only by value. We specialized in expensive produce.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#126

Post by ganzuul » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #23

I find it a bit ironic given the MIT climate simulator on HN yesterday - the biggest impact (in that simulator) to climate change was the land/agriculture methane. Right now the Dutch farmers are again harassing the country with their tractors on public roads, angry about what they feel is undue pressure to reduce their emissions. Maybe they'll get one or two more generations of farming as they hasten their own demis…

My uncle thinks the atmosphere will explode when the Siberian permafrost releases its methane. Then I started thinking, maybe that is what happened in Tunguska. For a thermobaric event of geological proportions maybe it was small.

ED: Didn't mean to scare anyone. Just following a thread of logic.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#127

Post by Scarblac » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

kharak wrote: post #63

aequitas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A strong part of the protestors are young farmers. Set on taking over their parents farm and continuing the family business. And they probably want the same for their kids as well. It's really puzzling they take this stance, especially since the majority is also anti EU, which is also against their best interest, because most of their revenue is from export, which would suffer havily when a Nexit would ever occur. So…

Just a guess, but I know some farmers. What I get from them is, that they are all about freedom to do what they think is right on their own land. Anything that brings regulations to their farms is felt as an attack. To be honest, I can understand them. They work insane hours all year long, constant pressure from the markets and society and every year there are more laws demanding their time and resources. That some o…

Most of them are also rich as fuck considering they often own their land outright. I think the support for them is overestimated.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#128

Post by vonmoltke » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #92

jacquesm wrote: post #37

It won't. NL has been preparing quite hard for a rise in sea level and/or worse storms. The port of IJmuiden is being overhauled, the shoreline defenses have all been raised, in some places only about 3 ft, in others much more depending on the likelihood of flooding. A bigger problem is that during an extended period of high water that the rivers won't be able to drain into the North Sea and studies are being made on…

I may be biased because I live in the NL and I live slightly below sea level. But I would be more worried to live on the coast somewhere else that has no history of dealing with these kinds of problems. In some sense The Netherlands is the only country on the planet to have the political structures in place to deal with rising sea waters. What do people think Florida is going to do? They're already losing their drink…

> What do people think Florida is going to do? They're already losing their drinking water and they're still in denial.

That has been going on for decades, and has more to do with the population load on the water supply draining the aquifers than it does climate change. The drinking water table is already below sea level. At worst, climate change is hastening the inevitable.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#129

Post by olau » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

edhelas wrote: post #78

mcv wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we've really been in the back of the pack on green energy. When you see how much countries like Denmark and Germany have been investing in clean energy, it's embarrassing how little we've done. Fortunately our eternally right-wing government finally seems to realise that something should be done. Let's hope they actually do.

Investing in renewable energy doesn't mean that you'll drastically reduce your CO² emissions. You have to take into account the capacity factor of what you install https://jancovici.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/load-factor... You need to install 3 to 4 times more windmill and solar panel to approach the same output. You also need to install huge way to store your electricity (mostly using damns, hard to get in plac…

Most of this is incorrect, starting with your first claim.

Here's a chart that shows the yearly CO2 emissions from electricity generation in Denmark

https://energinet.dk/Om-nyheder/Nyheder/2017/05/19/El-produk...

If you know a bit about Danish politics, you can clearly tell at which point there was lackluster political support.

Re: When will the Netherlands disappear?

#130

Post by suby » Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 5:22 PM UTC

wainstead wrote: post #124

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be biased because I live in the NL and I live slightly below sea level. But I would be more worried to live on the coast somewhere else that has no history of dealing with these kinds of problems. In some sense The Netherlands is the only country on the planet to have the political structures in place to deal with rising sea waters. What do people think Florida is going to do? They're already losing their drink…

> What do people think Florida is going to do? They're already losing their drinking water and they're still in denial. > Build pumps, dikes and create flood plains. Just want to point out this approach won't work for Florida (and I'm not implying you said it would). The land in south Florida is porous limestone, and the water will just pass under any dykes you build.

Is there a solution that would work for Florida?