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Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

uncontactedtribes.org

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Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#231

Post by mrleinad »

Groxx wrote: post #198
mrleinad wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And not every kind of discrimination or restriction is wrong. We must not contact them, unless they want to contact us. We cannot be certain of the impact of our presence to their minds. Just as we can't be certain (no, we can't) of the impact of an alien presence in our planet.

> We must not contact them, unless they want to contact us. And how do we tell? They can't know about us unless they... know about us (contamination: our existence , and any visual differences). They can't contact us unless they know where we are (contamination: we're watching them, and they see us doing so). Then they can't express desires until we understand each other (contamination: language and ideas). At that p…

Your last paragraph, if analyzed, contains a false assesment. If they walk in a straight line and contact us, and then they don't return to their way of life because they want to keep that contact, then we can be certain they want to communicate with us. We can CHOOSE to stay away. There's nothing that states we MUST communicate or have relationships with all human beings, nor step onto EVERY land until everything's explored and divided. Just let them be, do not interfere.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#232

Post by simcop2387 »

robryan wrote: post #218
uxp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes you wonder what they were thinking when they saw the plane flying around over their heads. In almost every shot of the tribe, they were all standing and staring. I doubt it is the first time they have seen some sort of modern technology, but it certainly isn't common. Modern man is taking away their land to oil drilling and logging. Personally, I think we should treat it as tribal leaders once did. We are th…

It sounds like they would have seen planes many times as this guy has been following them for 20 years. It would be interesting how they perceive the planes, they may see them as some kind of god watching over them.

Hard to say since it's unlikely to be the same plane, they might think it's either multiple beings. I'd suspect more that they think it's a giant bird than a god though.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#233

Post by hyperbovine »

xenophanes wrote: post #27
raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

This is the old noble savage debate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage). As evidenced by the fact that Western societies have engaged in it for at least the past 500 years, it's way less settled than you make it out to be. Convincing arguments exist for both sides.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#235

Post by Helianthus16 »

yesbabyyes wrote: post #226
deadmansshoes wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but those executions weren't a ridiculous attempt to appease some "sun god" - many of the those executed in England were witches. As to the comment above - are you suggesting the Spanish deliberately spread diseases? It seems a little unfair to accuse the Spanish invaders of bio-warfare.

Excuse me - it might be that I'm tipsy but did you just call appeasing gods ridiculous while presenting the execution of witches as something less ridiculous?

yes, he did. it's a little absurd, but I believe his main point is still valid.

the inquisition &etc were as much about cultural conformity and control than about espousing a culture of violence. while ridiculous the question is not to compare ridiculousness levels but to compare the _reasons_ that people were doing the ridiculous things they did.

killing people for the express and explicit purpose of killing people is bad mojo.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#236

Post by gregwebs »

AndrewMoffat wrote: post #189

How is it that some peoples can remain in this state for so long? Please don't read disrespect in the question, I mean it neutrally. There seems to have been very little innovation or growth in terms of technology when you look at people still living like this.

Because they most likely lead a happy (and possibly leisurely lifestyle by our standards) already. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society

Perhaps a more interesting question to ask is why would anyone want to switch to civilization? It has really been all downside (except for the wealthiest few %) until very recently in history.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#237

Post by Helianthus16 »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #64
d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

I would assert that the problem is in the problem and not in Star Trek's analysis of the problem.

That is to say, the problem of interference and controlling choice is not an easy one. Star Trek portrays one viewpoint and its pitfalls. That's not muddying, that's _clarifying_ how muddy it already s.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#238

Post by Groxx »

mrleinad wrote: post #231
Groxx wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We must not contact them, unless they want to contact us. And how do we tell? They can't know about us unless they... know about us (contamination: our existence , and any visual differences). They can't contact us unless they know where we are (contamination: we're watching them, and they see us doing so). Then they can't express desires until we understand each other (contamination: language and ideas). At that p…

Your last paragraph, if analyzed, contains a false assesment. If they walk in a straight line and contact us, and then they don't return to their way of life because they want to keep that contact, then we can be certain they want to communicate with us. We can CHOOSE to stay away. There's nothing that states we MUST communicate or have relationships with all human beings, nor step onto EVERY land until everything's…

Really? What if they're just out walking and are unaware of the existence of other humans? Finding a city when you think your group is all there is would be rather "contaminating". And you've still contaminated that one; if they bring back that information, you've allowed contamination of the culture as a whole, the same as if you went yourselves, except you get to sit back and lie about how you had nothing to do with it. Unless you wish to state that an individual can and does accurately speak for a group, especially a group you know almost nothing about except what that individual has told you? What if they're the anarchist of the group?

And if we were to know if they think other humans than themselves / those they immediately interact with exist, we've probably exposed ourselves to them, as that would be hard to know through un-detected observation alone.

Our existence is interference if they become aware of it. Absolute non-interference is impossible if they ever become aware of us in any way. If we "must not contact them" unless they want it, we cannot impose ourselves on any who do not wish to contact us, which means complete isolation until they magically express their desire to contact that which they cannot know exists.

My point is that "We must not contact them, unless they want to contact us." is a logical impossibility, not something one can actually achieve, and it makes no sense to hold such an impossibility as an ideal.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#240

Post by guelo »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #64
d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

One thing that people in this conversation are overlooking is that if these tribes were contacted they wouldn't be brought into an American culture, they wouldn't get quality health care and internet access. There are millions of indigenous people living throughout South America and they mostly live in squalid slums. Personally I'd rather live in the jungle.
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