Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe • Hacker News Board

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#161

Post by logjam » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:25 AM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #27

raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

Perhaps you'd be good enough to explain to us all exactly what an "uncivilized lifestyle" is, what is "backward" about them, and exactly which "uncivilized" and "dark age" cultures you feel currently live lives which are "uncomfortable, short, and brutal." Exactly what characterizes "our way of life?" Technology? How does technology make our way of life "better?" Science? I'd advance that many of these "backwards cultures" are probably successful in large part because they are more scientific and experienced and thoughtful about the worlds they inhabit, than oh, say, the average conservative Republican in the "civilized" U.S...who denies global warming, thinks education is dangerous, wants to halt stem-cell research, believes in the efficacy of prayer in health care, etc etc.

Maybe we could continue our discussion with a glance at the now classic 1990 New England Journal of Medicine article indicating that African American men in the middle of one of our modern and "civilized" cities and countries in the late twentieth century have a lower life expectancy than their counterparts in Bangladesh. "Dark ages quality?" "Myths and prejudices" You mean racism? Nationalism? "In God We Trust?"

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199001183220306

Maybe we could move on to a thesis dozens of historians share, that the "primitive" Native Americans gave us MORE in the way of transfer of technology and culture than we provided. The agricultural knowledge passed on, the result of generations of careful observation and experimentation by Native Americans, was immense. Beyond agricultural technology and an enlightened, observational ecology, it's not even clear that the average European knew you could take a damned bath with water regularly as a healthful practice before immigrants gaped at Native Americans doing just that. More importantly, as Ian Frazier notes in the first chapter of "On the Rez" which I invite all the cultural imperialists here to read, at the time of Columbus there were probably about "eleven people in all of Europe who could do what they wanted." Amerigo Vespucci had brought back news that in the New World, "every one is his own master." Frazier goes on to show the profound impact Native American thought had on the idea of personal freedom among European immigrants still steeped in monarchy, and what that brought forth in America.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#162

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:27 AM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #53

xenophanes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

How does your perspective differ from the perspective of the missionaries who attempted to bring "salvation" to indigenous peoples around the world? How does your perspective differ from the perspectives that led to the imposition of the Residential Schools? https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Canadian_Indi... Also, nothing I wrote says anything about providing them with access , it says something about de…

[deleted]

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#163

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:31 AM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #134

raganwald wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treat people as you would like to be treated if you were them. I wish I had 100 upmods to give. This is exactly what I was saying elsewhere, we should think about how we would want to be treated. Would we want medicine and education offered to us? Would we want the option for some of our elders to live out the rest of their lives in a traditional manner? Would we want bulldozers knocking down our trees? Would we want…

I'd want to be left alone - give one example of colonialism that worked out well for indigenous people, and I'll maybe change my mind.

There are much less invasive options for contact than colonialism. Nobody said we have to move ourselves into some indigenous peoples' lands in order to offer them the chance to accept or reject a modern life.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#164

Post by adsr » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:32 AM UTC

In my opinion they would have left their forrest a long time ago if they where really curious to seek out what was beyond it. The fact that they stay, indicates to me that they are happy with the way life is.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#165

Post by pyre » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:34 AM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #27

raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

  > We should give them access to technology and to our
  > way of life. Our way of life is better.

So, we should like emulate Canada over the mid-20th century, and kidnap children from tribal lands and force them into orphanages/boarding school where most of them will be abused physically and sexually in the process of trying to 'train the savage' out of them?

edit: Missed raganwald's post and Wikipedia link

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#166

Post by lwhi » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:35 AM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #133

lwhi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly - I think our politics are so far removed, that talking about this sanely would involve a hours of deprogramming on either of our parts. My biggest problem with your point of view is that you're claiming superiority for our society, when the quality of a culture can't easily be measured. It's equivalent of saying 'mine is the best, because it's mine'. I can't agree with it.

I am not programmed with these views. I grew up in an environment heavily leaning the other way. Then I rethought things on my own initiative. I am open to discussion including lengthy discussion. HN is not a suitable place for that. Why don't we talk here: http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list/ You can also read some of my philosophy if you like (if you think I am programmed by someone, please let me…

I'm not trying to say that you've been programmed by someone, or that you're being mindless.

It's just that sometimes views are so strongly held that discussion is very drawn out - I was being a bit flippant.

Thanks for the invite to the group. I will take you up on your offer, I'll also have a read through your site - it looks very interesting.

EDIT: I should point out, if I had to choose a school of philosophy, it would be existentialism - we might be a bit like oil and water.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#167

Post by borism » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:36 AM UTC

uvdiv wrote: post #84

d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

> BTW: you to know that Western medicine is not the only medicine in the world. There is only one class of medicine in the world, and is scientific. Your attempt to frame science-based medicine as a racial or cultural property ("Western") lies at the root of your reasoning fallacies: you reinterpret comparison between industrialized and tribal humans as cultural/racial, regardless of whether race or culture has anyth…

There is only one class of medicine in the world, and is scientific.

what is considered scientific is very often defined by culture though.

I bet those tribes consider their shamans scientists, even though they won't pass our western scientific criteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_medicine

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#168

Post by BoppreH » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:38 AM UTC

jseifer wrote: post #146

Did anyone else notice how healthy they looked?

They have been there for quite a while, and humans are great at adaptation.

If we couldn't be reasonably healthy at such conditions, humanity would have been extinct long ago.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#169

Post by cynicalkane » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:39 AM UTC

d3x wrote: post #35

xenophanes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

I wonder if anyone is seriuosly advocating forcing anyone to do anything. Yes, civilization was once murderously expansionist, then it was culturally imperialist, but I'd like to think we've got better.

Remember, there are ways to make contact that don't involve oppression and/or bloodshed. Shockingly, some of them have even been tried successfully. It befuddles the hell out of me that many people here--allegedly accurate thinkers--not only can't see this, but actively dislike anyone who can.

To the entire thread: ye who hate thoughtful discussion, go away.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#170

Post by muhfuhkuh » Sat, Feb 05, 2011, 12:39 AM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #27

raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

“If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.” -- Stephen Hawking

The truth, in both theory and practice, is that there is no pure, fair sharing of technology. It always, in nearly every single situation throughout world history, has ended in blood, subjugation, and/or slavery. And, it likely always will.

Cultures don't just switch over to a "more superior" one; they're almost always forced to.

Think of how many people died or were conquered through history just so that we could all be able to flush a toilet and it actually go somewhere. Absurd, but apropos.