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How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

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Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#71
post #47
post #6

What happened to "stop buying things you don't need"? I had a friend tell me he was considering a consumer loan because repaying his other loans didn't leave him with enough money. I swear, it's as if people have never seen money before.

Elizabeth Warren said that in their bankruptcy study, the vast majority of people who filed for bankruptcy didn't do it because they "bought things they didn't need". They did it because they overextended themselves to get a house in a good school district and then one of them lost their job or they had a medical emergency. It's easy to paint those people as irresponsible, but according to her, it's very far from the…

I remember a study on general aviation plane crashes. They found that very few plane crashes came about because the pilot made a single, obvious mistake. Instead, the common pattern was a series of missteps, each so small that you couldn't properly call it a "mistake" in and of itself, the pilot was just cutting corners on the recommended safety margin. And then something happened that was out of the pilot's control, like bad weather or distraction or mechanical failure. Because the safety precautions that make it normally possible to recover from these events weren't followed, this resulted in a crash instead of merely a nerve-wracking landing.

I think the same thing happens with finance. If you look at the proximate cause of bankruptcy, it's almost always that somebody has a health emergency or a death in the family or loses their job. But many people have health emergencies, deaths in the family, and stints of unemployment without going into bankruptcy. And the reason why is the same thing Benjamin Graham and Warren Buffett have been espousing in investing for years: Margin of Safety.

If you always live on the edge, then it's a given that sometime you're going to fall off. Hold back 6-12 months reserve of salary, and suddenly unemployment doesn't look so scary. Health insurance makes a sudden medical emergency not quite so scary. Have $10-20K in the bank, and you don't need to worry that totaling your car is going to send you into crippling debt.

The irresponsible part is not that these people got sick or lost their job, it's that they didn't prepare for contingencies where they would get sick and lose their job. There's this culture in America where as soon as you start earning more money, you have to spend it on something, otherwise you're wasting it. But there's a tension between resiliency and efficiency, and if you're always being perfectly efficient, things tend to go very wrong when they go wrong. Make your bargains accordingly.

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#72
post #60
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"overextending" oneself, especially if you have dependents, is irresponsible.

Putting yourself in heavy debt to make sure your kids have a good shot is not difficult to defend. It's not something I'd do, but I have a hard time blaming someone for making that sacrifice.

It's not something I'd do, but I have a hard time blaming someone for making that sacrifice.

a) Why is it that you won't do it?

b) The issue is that they're sacrificing the financial security of their kids by living on the edge and that is irresponsible if you're someone's guardian.

Imagine a company/government says we'll go into heavy debt because we want to give our shareholders/citizens a good shot - is that not irresponsible?

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#73
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can buy things you don't need, and you can buy things with money you don't have, but doing both at the same time is a really bad idea.

By say, taking out student loans? Considering that this is pretty much the primary way that education is paid for these days, simply repeating "debt is a bad idea" hardly seems adequate. (and I am personally happy to be debt-free but I can see why my indebted friends made the choices they did, however badly they may have worked out).

Unless you're going to a top-tier college and majoring in a marketable skill, that is a bad idea too.

There's a bubble in higher education where many people are being promised a good life merely by going to college. These people get out of college, find out that such a good life was just a mirage, and then find out that the $200K in debt they took on for it wasn't such a great idea either.

The responsible thing to do there is to just say no. Don't go to college, and find ways to prove that you can add value to people without that college degree.

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#74
post #6

What happened to "stop buying things you don't need"? I had a friend tell me he was considering a consumer loan because repaying his other loans didn't leave him with enough money. I swear, it's as if people have never seen money before.

It's really much more complicated than this. There are a lot of people in this country who live paycheck to paycheck. Some of those people got there by living irresponsibly, and some didn't. When you're living paycheck to paycheck and an emergency comes up, you use whatever means you have available to get through it. I've certainly been in situations where I've had major unexpected expenses (medical, auto, home, busi…

I can understand living paycheck-to-paycheck if you're making $20K/year.

I can't understand living paycheck-to-paycheck if you're making $100K/year, and yet many people seem to do that. Why not live like someone who makes $60K/year, which is a perfectly adequate lifestyle, and bank the rest for emergencies?

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#75
post #39

i rang up about 5k in credit card debt. six months ago, i decided to put my nose to the grindstone and get it done. i paid my last $600 off this morning. i stopped buying unnecessary shit, stopped eating out all the time, and most importantly, made payments -every- time i possibly could. if i opened my bank account online and had $400 left in checking, i'd put $250 into the card. if i had $200 left, i'd put $100. the…

I'm sure you're up there with those who think that people who owe large sums of money should "just work harder" or "lay off alcohol and cigs". I had a medical injury that has royally screwed up my life. I also HAD insurance, but starbucks switched insurance and I was now in preexisting condition hell. I had no money for a lawsuit, so I'm now 12k in the hole, along with basic living expenses that I had to cover while…

'I'm sure you're up there with those who think that people who owe large sums of money should "just work harder" or "lay off alcohol and cigs".'

You say I'm "up there" like I'm some sort of snooty asshole for working my face off for six months to pay off my debt. I have my vices (I love you, Mary Jane) and I still managed to afford them so make whatever assumptions you will about me, I just found it more gratifying to work on my debt rather than get canned every weekend (not at first, it took a few months to get to that point).

I feel for you in regards to your injury, but 20k is pretty damn far from insurmountable debt. If anything it sounds like you've given up on yourself, and that sucks because I've been there and it's a tough spot to break out of.

I worked my ass off for six months to pay off 5k - work your ass off for 24 months and you'll be well on your way to knocking down that 20k.

Oh.... and just work harder.

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#76
post #72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting yourself in heavy debt to make sure your kids have a good shot is not difficult to defend. It's not something I'd do, but I have a hard time blaming someone for making that sacrifice.

It's not something I'd do, but I have a hard time blaming someone for making that sacrifice. a) Why is it that you won't do it? b) The issue is that they're sacrificing the financial security of their kids by living on the edge and that is irresponsible if you're someone's guardian. Imagine a company/government says we'll go into heavy debt because we want to give our shareholders/citizens a good shot - is that not i…

Debt can go away but bad education doesn't.

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#78
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a "medical emergency" can have unlimited costs today...

The parent wrote: "They did it because they overextended themselves to get a house in a good school district and then one of them lost their job or they had a medical emergency." So, they overextended themselves and THEN lost a job or had a medical emergency. The problem is people choose to live on the edge financially, which I think is irresponsible, especially if you have others who depend on you for their life.

"So, they overextended themselves and THEN lost a job or had a medical emergency. The problem is people choose to live on the edge financially, which I think is irresponsible, especially if you have others who depend on you for their life."

This is exactly true. Someone above mentioned that people buy houses, to get into a good school district. Why can't we allow people in bad school districts to go to another school? I will give you the answer: teacher's unions.

I always try to have at least 6 months (IE: I could survive for six months without a job) salary in the bank. I got laid off a couple of weeks ago and now I'm fine. Many people I know, that decided to live beyond their means, are now worried that if they lose their job, they will be in trouble.

Everyone wants to blame the medical system (which does need work) and ignore personal responsibility. Medical emergencies that result in bankruptcy probably happen to less than 5% of the population. It's almost as bad as the terrorist fear mongering.

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#79
post #72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting yourself in heavy debt to make sure your kids have a good shot is not difficult to defend. It's not something I'd do, but I have a hard time blaming someone for making that sacrifice.

It's not something I'd do, but I have a hard time blaming someone for making that sacrifice. a) Why is it that you won't do it? b) The issue is that they're sacrificing the financial security of their kids by living on the edge and that is irresponsible if you're someone's guardian. Imagine a company/government says we'll go into heavy debt because we want to give our shareholders/citizens a good shot - is that not i…

Mainly because I don't have any plans to have kids, but I'm also not the sort to take that kind of risk. I'd rather supplement a bad school with good resources at home and plenty of guidance.

Re: How Americans Get Out of Credit Card Debt

#80
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you're up there with those who think that people who owe large sums of money should "just work harder" or "lay off alcohol and cigs". I had a medical injury that has royally screwed up my life. I also HAD insurance, but starbucks switched insurance and I was now in preexisting condition hell. I had no money for a lawsuit, so I'm now 12k in the hole, along with basic living expenses that I had to cover while…

'I'm sure you're up there with those who think that people who owe large sums of money should "just work harder" or "lay off alcohol and cigs".' You say I'm "up there" like I'm some sort of snooty asshole for working my face off for six months to pay off my debt. I have my vices (I love you, Mary Jane) and I still managed to afford them so make whatever assumptions you will about me, I just found it more gratifying t…

Or just declare bankruptcy.
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