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United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

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Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#91
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, you can just repeal the second amendment. I’m unsure why anti-gun advocates don’t just argue this. The constitution can be changed. Justice Stevens argued this in an op-ed: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opin...

“In 1939 the Supreme Court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun because that weapon had no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia.” During the years when Warren Burger was our chief justice, from 1969 to 1986, no judge, federal or state, as far as I am aware, expressed any doubt as to the limited coverage of that amendment. Whe…

Blaming the NRA is popular, but people leave out that the academic tide turned against the 1960s view as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html

> There used to be an almost complete scholarly and judicial consensus that the Second Amendment protects only a collective right of the states to maintain militias. That consensus no longer exists — thanks largely to the work over the last 20 years of several leading liberal law professors, who have come to embrace the view that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own guns. See also: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/common.htm.

If you look at what the Framers contemporaneously wrote about guns and the militia, it’s almost impossible to deny that the purpose of the second amendment is to ensure that able-bodied men would have access to fire arms in order to form militias, to not only combat foreign enemies but potentially domestic ones. Any sort of gun control that undermines that purpose cannot be squared with the second amendment, and we are slowly but surely rediscovering that understanding.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the point is that different policies would affect suicides versus homicides, so grouping them into one category is not as useful as if they were separate.

It's just a weirdly nitpicky place to decide to start the conversation, just to state something that's already going to be obvious to anyone researching the subject, something that sure as heck seems to be coming from a place of not wanting the research to be done at all. A better way of stating the point without letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and thereby losing sight of the underlying need for further…

[deleted]

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#93
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also have a history of anti malaria bias. Public health agency finds that guns kill people, recommends fewer guns, news at 11

cars kill thousands of kids, recommend fewer cars swimming pools kill a thousand, recommend banning swimming pools drugs kill a thousand, make drugs illegal with huge jail terms. wait, that doesn't work. why are there thousands of kids handling guns fine without accidents in rural areas and thousands getting killed by a few hundred in urban areas. it's much more complex than just fewer guns, no private pool ownership…

Neither cars nor swimming pools are weapons designed to kill. Nor are most drugs.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#94
post #91
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“In 1939 the Supreme Court unanimously held that Congress could prohibit the possession of a sawed-off shotgun because that weapon had no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a “well regulated militia.” During the years when Warren Burger was our chief justice, from 1969 to 1986, no judge, federal or state, as far as I am aware, expressed any doubt as to the limited coverage of that amendment. Whe…

Blaming the NRA is popular, but people leave out that the academic tide turned against the 1960s view as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/us/06firearms.html > There used to be an almost complete scholarly and judicial consensus that the Second Amendment protects only a collective right of the states to maintain militias. That consensus no longer exists — thanks largely to the work over the last 20 years of se…

There’s more in the Atlantic version of the article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/john-paul-...

“ Colonial history contains many examples of firearm regulations in urban areas that imposed obstacles to their use for protection of the home. Boston, Philadelphia, and New York—the three largest cities in America at that time—all imposed restrictions on the firing of guns in the city limits. Boston enacted a law in 1746 prohibiting the “discharge” of any gun or pistol that was later revived in 1778; ”

“ Boston’s gunpowder law imposed a 10-pound fine on any person who took any loaded firearm into any dwelling house or barn within the town. Most, if not all, of those regulations would violate the Second Amendment as it was construed in the 5–4 decision that Justice Antonin Scalia ”

During colonial times we did not have a large standing army and relied on state militias.

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/on-this-day-congress-off...

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#95
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaning what? The SCOTUS has ruled several times that the individual right to bear arms is separate from the "militia" statement and both are covered in the 2A.

Why is the phrase "well-regulated militia" in there then? Is it just fluff that can be ignored?

Eugene Volokh has done a pretty thorough study of this: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/common.htm

> The Second Amendment is widely seen as quite unusual, because it has a justification clause as well as an operative clause. Professor Volokh points out that this structure was actually quite commonplace in American constitutions of the Framing era: State Bills of Rights contained justification clauses for many of the rights they secured. Looking at these state provisions, he suggests, can shed light on how the similarly structured Second Amendment should be interpreted. In particular, the provisions show that constitutional rights will often -- and for good reason -- be written in ways that are to some extent overinclusive and to some extent underinclusive with respect to their stated justifications.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#96
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, one of the new tactics gun control advocates have adopted is lumping homicides and suicides together into “gun deaths” even though the policy implications of the two things are quite different. That's assuming that the reason for lumping them together is an attempt to justify policy. One counter argument to gun control seems to be that gun ownership is a way to preserve liberty and defend the home. It…

> It has been repeatedly and consistently found that gun ownership leads to an increase in gun related injuries and deaths for the owners This supposed factoid is frequently repeated in these sorts of discussions about gun-related data, but I have never been presented with convincing findings that support the thrust of this argument. Is this more true for guns than any other object? Is there such a strong casual rela…

> Is this more true for guns than any other object? Is there such a strong casual relationship between proximity and firearms and subsequent injuries and deaths to overcome the other aspects of the discussion?

What other aspect of the discussion do you feel undermines the point that owning a gun actually measurably reduces personal liberty via death? What hard hitting facts do you think are missing here?

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#97
post #3

Gun violence research is a good example of how science can be skewed to make different political points. For example, one of the new tactics gun control advocates have adopted is lumping homicides and suicides together into “gun deaths” even though the policy implications of the two things are quite different. (Suicides accounting for the large majority of “gun deaths,” but bans on semi-automatic rifles and high capa…

For anyone reading along at home: Gun rights do not derive from the Constitution, they derive from the natural right of a being to protect itself. The second amendment is codifed there to attempt to limit the power of the government to take away that right. Despite what you may have been told it is not a collective right (there's no such thing), it is an individual right. Just like every other right enumerated in the Constitution.

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#99
post #75
post #3

Gun violence research is a good example of how science can be skewed to make different political points. For example, one of the new tactics gun control advocates have adopted is lumping homicides and suicides together into “gun deaths” even though the policy implications of the two things are quite different. (Suicides accounting for the large majority of “gun deaths,” but bans on semi-automatic rifles and high capa…

Also, not all gun suicides should be prevented. My friend's grandfather was dying of Parkinson's and had a very horrible and unpleasant 3-6 months ahead of him. He blew his head to pieces with a gun. It was a massive quality of life improvement for him. Nobody in the family was really that upset -- they were glad that he didn't have to suffer, and he took care to do it in a way that none of his family had to discover…

My stomach churned just reading that. If you want to make a point about death with dignity, consider some wording other than "he blew his head to pieces with a gun".

Re: United States to fund gun-violence research after 20-year freeze

#100
post #3

Gun violence research is a good example of how science can be skewed to make different political points. For example, one of the new tactics gun control advocates have adopted is lumping homicides and suicides together into “gun deaths” even though the policy implications of the two things are quite different. (Suicides accounting for the large majority of “gun deaths,” but bans on semi-automatic rifles and high capa…

I feel like gun fans are trying to have it both ways. Why are semi-automatic rifles common targets for gun control advocates? Well, they make the news. So maybe people need to recognize that handguns are far more deadly. But wait: We don't want those banned either because we like them for self defense. So keeping the public ignorant so we can operate in an infinite "well, actually.." loop is preferable. But I can see…

I think you have common ground with many in “the club” with your comment on the sociology of the situation.

I think this is a situation where the quantitative research gets most of the attention, but the root cause of the problem will be hidden deep in the qualitative research.

Premeditated mass murder is not a simple crime of opportunity. There are some difficult social issues that are driving people to want to take these actions.

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