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Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

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Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#171

Post by lifeisstillgood »

danans wrote: post #46
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #21

I am trying to formulate a theory of wealth in modern society - I think that the vast vast majority of wealth resides in, or useless without, huge reservoirs of public wealth - from aqueducts still supplying Rome after 2000 years to public roads and rail. The active capitalist stuff going on, is mostly the frothy but as water fills up the reservoir - it the deep water is public, social wealth. It's a bit nebulous but…

> The active capitalist stuff going on, is mostly the frothy but as water fills up the reservoir - it the deep water is public, social wealth. Even privately held capital is underpinned by public, social "wealth" in the form of a system of property rights and the means to arbitrate those. Society, as manifested in government and the courts, is protecting all our claims to ownership of property with the threat of forc…

yes..

There are two attitudes to tax - one it is a service fee for government services, something short term to be haggled down, or it is a long term investment in this depp water wealth.

Threat of force is technically what underpins all this but that needs to be a credible threat - just having force without knowing where and when to apply it leads to applying it in wrong place or as "encourage les autres". And knowing when to apply it is likely the job of civil servente.

I think I am diving into late night undergraduate philosophy and economics - hmmm

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#172

Post by gamblor956 »

proc0 wrote: post #98
nimbius wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most of these people act that way because no one has taught them any better Have you seen homeless people? they are elderly invalids and the mentally ill who were brought upon us by Reagans neoliberal policy of deinstitutionalization. They are destitute former criminals barred from any future gainful employment by the checkbox on the job application. They are addicts who since Nixon have been stacked like cordwood a…

It actually sounds like you haven't met homeless people. I have lived in SF and LA for most of my life, and I can assure you, I know MANY homeless people PERSONALLY. What you are describing is how it used to be prior to 2010. Right now there's rising population of relatively young, relatively healthy people who are choosing to make sacrifices. Sure it can be tough but you can't complain if you actually have options a…

Ditto. The parent comment to yours ignores that a huge part of CA's homeless problem is that they aren't CA's homeless. They're the homeless problems of more than a dozen other states too selfish to take care of their own homeless.

CA doesn't do a great job of dealing with the homeless, but we'd have enough shelter beds for all of our own homeless if people from other states weren't taking those spots.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#173

Post by uneekname »

bilekas wrote: post #168
nostromo wrote: post #23

Seattle used to have this for an area of the city. It was called the "Free Ride Zone" - and it had some unexpected consequences. The primary problem is that homeless people would get on the bus because it's warm, and would fall asleep. The busses became rolling homeless shelters. This caused other people to take the bus less, because of public safety concerns, as well as simple quality-of-life issues like unpleasant…

Not to be rude, but don't you guys have security to just take them off ? It's a public disorder no ? I do feel for the homeless, and of course its a refuge etc, but its a public service and so can be removed from the tram/service. Its not a difficult solution to have to just grab a free ticket which could take you to the end of the line. In which case, no ticket (even free) no pass. I have a high opinion of Seattle i…

I live in DC so this might not be comparable, but our bus drivers are too focused on driving to worry about fare collection. How do you keep someone off a bus who refuses to pay the fare, and stay on schedule? There's really no way to make someone cough up $2 on a bus like there is on the Metrorail.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#174

Post by bilekas »

uneekname wrote: post #173
bilekas wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be rude, but don't you guys have security to just take them off ? It's a public disorder no ? I do feel for the homeless, and of course its a refuge etc, but its a public service and so can be removed from the tram/service. Its not a difficult solution to have to just grab a free ticket which could take you to the end of the line. In which case, no ticket (even free) no pass. I have a high opinion of Seattle i…

I live in DC so this might not be comparable, but our bus drivers are too focused on driving to worry about fare collection. How do you keep someone off a bus who refuses to pay the fare, and stay on schedule? There's really no way to make someone cough up $2 on a bus like there is on the Metrorail.

Fair, I am in Europe, and at the stop, the bus will stop to accept the fares, one by one, there are NFC cards which make a particular noise if you want to fast pass - bad noise if you don't have the money on the card, nice noise if you do.

But I will be the first to admit our public transport would not be the most punctual!

- EDIT: And if someone wont pay, and it delays the driver leaving, the other people on the bus start shouting at the person who wont pay! Or in certain times, pay for them :)

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#175

Post by munk-a »

g_langenderfer wrote: post #163
epicureanideal wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it that's preventing us from forcing our politicians to offer better options? I would vote for a solution to this, and even donate money to it, if enough other people were doing the same. Don't most people feel the same about this issue? What systemic problem is preventing a huge mass of people who agree on this from making a meaningful change happen?

If you believe funding housing solutions is the right thing, why won't you do it unilaterally?

Because that's an unreasonable stance to take, social welfare shouldn't be shouldered only by those people who care.

As a society we have homeless people and as a society we need to provide options for them.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#176

Post by chiefalchemist »

nostromo wrote: post #23

Seattle used to have this for an area of the city. It was called the "Free Ride Zone" - and it had some unexpected consequences. The primary problem is that homeless people would get on the bus because it's warm, and would fall asleep. The busses became rolling homeless shelters. This caused other people to take the bus less, because of public safety concerns, as well as simple quality-of-life issues like unpleasant…

> and it had some unexpected consequences.

Perhaps instead of waving our finger at free buses we should look for the root problem(s) that leave too many ppl with too few choices. Eliminating the no fare might have kept the marginalized off the buses, but it didn't address the problem. There still there. Somewhere.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#177

Post by DoreenMichele »

adrr wrote: post #166
DoreenMichele wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle needs a great deal more housing. https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/05/seattle-sta... The US needs to provide a national health care system. Our current system is actively part of the problem. Homeless services need to do a better job of providing "opportunity," not just charity. Most homeless services actively help keep the problem alive, a la The Shirky Principle. https://streetlifesolutions.blog…

Lot of the homeless services do offer job training. Goodwill is all about job training and Salvation Army also offers job experience for people recovering from addictions. Issue with homeless is a lot more complicated than access to jobs.

I once qualified for assistance with job hunting based on my handicap. Thankfully, I was offered a corporate job making better than minimum wage about the time I completed the lengthy intake process or they would have had me permanently underemployed and destitute instead merely trapped in poverty for a decade or more.

Please note that I spoke of opportunity, not jobs nor jobs training programs. Lots of job training programs et al actively limit opportunity. They don't want their participants to get too uppity or ambitious.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#178

Post by nostromo »

bilekas wrote: post #168
nostromo wrote: post #23

Seattle used to have this for an area of the city. It was called the "Free Ride Zone" - and it had some unexpected consequences. The primary problem is that homeless people would get on the bus because it's warm, and would fall asleep. The busses became rolling homeless shelters. This caused other people to take the bus less, because of public safety concerns, as well as simple quality-of-life issues like unpleasant…

Not to be rude, but don't you guys have security to just take them off ? It's a public disorder no ? I do feel for the homeless, and of course its a refuge etc, but its a public service and so can be removed from the tram/service. Its not a difficult solution to have to just grab a free ticket which could take you to the end of the line. In which case, no ticket (even free) no pass. I have a high opinion of Seattle i…

This is where uber progressive US cities, in particular the West Coast, differ from Europe.

You can get away with almost anything that isn't assault. Smoke pot and drink on the street -- no problem. Urinate anywhere you like. Pitch a tent on a sidewalk and stay for weeks. Shoot up in parks and just throw your needles on the ground. Even things like shoplifting are not prosecuted.

I love German transit because it is so quiet and peaceful. Meanwhile in the US, I've seen people bring stereos onto transit and play them at full blast. I've seen people pee on subway platforms in full view of everyone. I've seen people fight on busses. I don't even know how crazy you'd have to act to actually get arrested, because it never seems to happen.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#179

Post by ALittleLight »

bilekas wrote: post #168
nostromo wrote: post #23

Seattle used to have this for an area of the city. It was called the "Free Ride Zone" - and it had some unexpected consequences. The primary problem is that homeless people would get on the bus because it's warm, and would fall asleep. The busses became rolling homeless shelters. This caused other people to take the bus less, because of public safety concerns, as well as simple quality-of-life issues like unpleasant…

Not to be rude, but don't you guys have security to just take them off ? It's a public disorder no ? I do feel for the homeless, and of course its a refuge etc, but its a public service and so can be removed from the tram/service. Its not a difficult solution to have to just grab a free ticket which could take you to the end of the line. In which case, no ticket (even free) no pass. I have a high opinion of Seattle i…

Enforcing laws against the homeless is not the done thing in Seattle. The problem is not thinking of ways to detect their law breaking, but rather that the city chooses compassion over order and consequently ignores their lawlessness instead of enforcing the law.

If you do come to Seattle, you'll find the streets teeming with the homeless who are completely undisturbed by the police. Just walking around the city, and trying to avoid the homeless, I've witnessed multiple instances of homeless shoplifting, hard drug use (injecting themselves, crack pipe, etc), bodily functions on the street, threatening behavior (homeless people simply screaming invective and threats at passersby), to say nothing of people camped in sleeping bags on sidewalks and tents.

You can absolutely get on buses without paying. Simply ignoring the driver and walking by is all that's required. The police will not be notified, nor would they respond if they were, nor would their response be effective deterrence if they did.

Re: Kansas City is first major city in U.S. to offer no-cost public transportation

#180

Post by dmode »

runarberg wrote: post #135
nostromo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle has tried that. People with chemical addictions will not go to shelters because shelters don't allow you to be drunk or high. So shelter beds go unused, and people shoot up and drink in parks, on sidewalks, and on busses.

If true, then there is something wrong with the policy that all shelters need to be sober. Introduce some number of shelters—in parts of the city where high drug usage is a problem—that include safe use spaces (i.e. with medical access, clean needles and dispose boxes, no drug arrest policy etc.)

Cities increasingly are calling for safe injection sites, but it is against Federal law
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