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Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

wsj.com

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Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#81

Post by tyingq »

clintonb wrote: post #78
cletus wrote: post #71

So if you happen to hold any stock in any budget airlines (Southwest, Ryanair, that sort of thing) I would seriously consider dumping it now. If the Max doesn't return to service or even if its grounding is prolonged this represents an existential threat to the likes of Southwest as part of the way they maintain their low margins is by having a fleet with one and only one type rating. Other airlines (eg American) tha…

> If the Max doesn't return to service or even if its grounding is prolonged this represents an existential threat to the likes of Southwest as part of the way they maintain their low margins is by having a fleet with one and only one type rating. The 737 MAX has the same rating as every 737 that Southwest and others fly. Part of the MCAS controversy stems from the fact that Boeing did not discuss it to avoid needing…

They are saying that if the MAX isn't available, Southwest will have to consider buying a completely different aircraft.

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#82

Post by hinkley »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #36
ryanisnan wrote: post #19

I'm surprised that the market hasn't reacted more negatively towards Boeing regarding the Max 8 disaster. Airlines operate on razor-thin margins (~1 to 2%), and several users of the Max 8 have had significant portions of their fleet out of service as a result. Westjet [1], for example runs 124 planes currently. 13 of which are the Max 8. Over 10% of their fleet. Southwest Airlines [2], for example, runs 748 planes, 3…

> lawsuits that are surely incoming are going to pile-drive this company into the ground Legally, everyone is indemnified up the wazoo. Strategically, airlines are in a worse position if Boeing goes under. Not only do they lose the planes on order. They also lose their service and replacement-parts provider. The survivors would, in the medium-term, face an Airbus monopoly and, in the long-term, a Chinese-European duo…

Didn't the US government already "manage" us into the McDonnell Douglas merger in the first place?

"We're from the Government and we're here to help," indeed.

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#83

Post by munk-a »

room271 wrote: post #58
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lawsuits that are surely incoming are going to pile-drive this company into the ground Legally, everyone is indemnified up the wazoo. Strategically, airlines are in a worse position if Boeing goes under. Not only do they lose the planes on order. They also lose their service and replacement-parts provider. The survivors would, in the medium-term, face an Airbus monopoly and, in the long-term, a Chinese-European duo…

But the airlines know that Boeing will never go under because the US government would (justifiably) never let that happen for strategic reasons.

Boeing has burned a lot of political and public capital recently so they may actually be in hot water over this. As a Canadian I'm still pretty outraged over the stupidity that the US carried out at Bombardier - Boeing basically told the US Government "Hey, those Canadians are better than us at everything" and then the US Government said "Oh, poor baby, well we'll just help the free market out with a 300% tariff."

Thanks free market economics!

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#84

Post by selimthegrim »

ryanisnan wrote: post #19

I'm surprised that the market hasn't reacted more negatively towards Boeing regarding the Max 8 disaster. Airlines operate on razor-thin margins (~1 to 2%), and several users of the Max 8 have had significant portions of their fleet out of service as a result. Westjet [1], for example runs 124 planes currently. 13 of which are the Max 8. Over 10% of their fleet. Southwest Airlines [2], for example, runs 748 planes, 3…

SWA and AA are morally responsible for some of these design choices. I’m sure they would come up in any suit vs Boeing

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#85

Post by adrr »

kayfox wrote: post #34
the-pigeon wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ban the aircraft. Criminally charge everyone involved in suppressing it's serious issues and forcing it through approval. Figure out how their processes become vulnerable to corruption and attempt to change them. The problem is of course the FAA doesn't want to hurt Boeing or the industry over this. But that strongly conflicts with their job. The hope at this point seems to be to drag it out until people forget.

Why, were talking about a fatal error in one small system on a huge and complex aircraft which is 90% the same as the previous iteration of this aircraft. We can fix these things. We should not be approaching engineering problems with emotional reactions to crashes. The airline industry is so incredibly safe because each crash is analyzed, the problems identified and solved. If two crashes mean we should scrap it, do…

Someone did the stats around the max 8. 300 lives lost in 3 years of operation and 400 planes in the sky. It is actually quite dangerous to fly and much more dangerous than driving when you compare by travel time and not distance. In comparison, A320 Neo and 787 have no hull losses and there's more of those planes in the sky than the maxes. 787s have been flying for almost 10 years.

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#86

Post by bitxbit »

Lost in all of this discussion is the fact that Boeing problems began with South Carolina. The fact that politics played a big role in opening that plant should not be ignored. MAX wasn’t just designed poorly, the organization process within Boeing was already failing. It’s a corporate culture failure.

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#87

Post by hinkley »

markus_zhang wrote: post #39
ryanisnan wrote: post #19

I'm surprised that the market hasn't reacted more negatively towards Boeing regarding the Max 8 disaster. Airlines operate on razor-thin margins (~1 to 2%), and several users of the Max 8 have had significant portions of their fleet out of service as a result. Westjet [1], for example runs 124 planes currently. 13 of which are the Max 8. Over 10% of their fleet. Southwest Airlines [2], for example, runs 748 planes, 3…

Boeing is one of the pillars of the American economy and the market as well. Dumping the stock will hurt pretty much every fund that invested on it, plus Dow will plunge just because of this one stock if it's getting dumped. Boeing, as well as many other firms, are just too big to fail suddenly.

There was a really weird moment for me about ten years ago when I realized Apple could pay cash to buy Boeing. I mean, obviously they wouldn't, but something is off about the scale of it all.

Are we sure it's a pillar? Perhaps if you take all of the suppliers and partners it represents, sure. But by itself, I don't think it really look all that impressive.

After The War, the US government was careful to keep domestic manufacturing 'healthy' which turned into 'fat and happy' which has now turned into I-don't-know-what, but I wonder if subsidies-as-defense-policy should be putting more energy into other industries.

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#88

Post by rwc »

ryanisnan wrote: post #19

I'm surprised that the market hasn't reacted more negatively towards Boeing regarding the Max 8 disaster. Airlines operate on razor-thin margins (~1 to 2%), and several users of the Max 8 have had significant portions of their fleet out of service as a result. Westjet [1], for example runs 124 planes currently. 13 of which are the Max 8. Over 10% of their fleet. Southwest Airlines [2], for example, runs 748 planes, 3…

Boeing already cleared their obligation to Southwest for 2019 with a $125 million payment. Nothing to sneeze at, but far from anything nearing a "pile-drive".

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#89

Post by Symbiote »

alexis_fr wrote: post #63
mikl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have outstanding orders for around 5000 737 MAXes. Assuming they get them reapproved some time soon, keeping the production going to not fall too far behind their delivery schedule will likely have saved them a fortune in late-fees.

Especially if they rename it and sell it under a new brand. I’d go for a “737 Neo”, only nerds can make the difference (even between a Boeing and an Airbus).

With Boeing in the news all the time, I've paid a lot more attention to the aircraft.

For the 737/A320-size plane, it's now easy to tell:

- If the plane has a nice, spacious interior, it's an Airbus. The flight will be quiet.

- If the plane is crampt, it's a Boeing, and it will be a bit noisier.

I still don't really think about it when booking the flight. Schedule and price are more important.

Re: Boeing to Suspend 737 Max Production in January

#90

Post by allovernow »

wayoutthere wrote: post #42
ryanisnan wrote: post #19

I'm surprised that the market hasn't reacted more negatively towards Boeing regarding the Max 8 disaster. Airlines operate on razor-thin margins (~1 to 2%), and several users of the Max 8 have had significant portions of their fleet out of service as a result. Westjet [1], for example runs 124 planes currently. 13 of which are the Max 8. Over 10% of their fleet. Southwest Airlines [2], for example, runs 748 planes, 3…

> The lawsuits that are surely incoming are going to pile-drive this company into the ground. Boeing is one of the most heavily subsidized companies in the world -- right alongside Airbus. They are a strategic asset to the United States far beyond their market value. The market knows this, hence why their stock is not being hammered.

Indeed. Though personally I feel perhaps Boeing should be left to fail, I'm considering going long if the stock slides further in the short term because I anticipate some form of bailout/buyout.
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