Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#131

Post by harikb » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #69

dbcurtis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the early days, farm tractors were pretty simple, and many farmers did a lot of their own work. As machines got bigger, most used local repair shops that could always order from parts depots. But as electronics has invaded tractors (for many good reasons) it has gotten to the point where you really need the diagnostic equipment. So this is a lot like what auto repair was in the early days of the diagnostic plug-in…

It's actually much worse. All of the electronics also causes the machine to collect quite a bit of data on how/when it is used. WRT to the individual farmer, that data now has value and the manufacturer can extract that value by requiring the customer to pay to have access to it. At scale, that data can be sold off to hedge funds and other wall street shops to help inform data trading algorithm on grain futures and t…

This is an excellent point. There must also be some right and/or control for the owner generating this data, so that they can access it independently, at least in some raw form.

I wonder if this qualifies under GDPR like law. If my cookie is private data, why can't the movement of my truck be?

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#132

Post by squish78 » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #122

squish78 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree, but we're not yet to the point of massive famine and crop failures - although it seems closer year after year. Every farmer I talk to is worn out and tired of the bullshit.

I've often wondered if our government has some massive stores of grain somewhere to feed the nation for a few years in the event of a near total crop failure. Seems irresponsible not to have it. Update: I sometimes wonder what it would take for me to have a year of food in reserve here at home, but I worry that its just the crazy Prepper in me trying to come out.

Think on this topic long enough, and you'll find yourself starting a vegetable garden in the spring.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#133

Post by choward » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

boredishBoi wrote: post #102

ProZsolt wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should get ~7 years of update. Here you can check: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en I think it should be more, but it's on par with MacBooks

Actually MacBooks get 6/7 years from when Apple stops selling them. In contrast, the timer starts as soon as the first Chromebook with that cpu is released. It was a nasty surprise when I found that out

That is terrible. So they'll never create a device that is good enough that they'll sell for for 6 years unless they sell something they don't support.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#134

Post by Crashbat » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

Balanceinfinity wrote: post #120

An economist would say that when considering buying this machinery the farmer would also consider the cost and availability of repairs and that the competition in the machinery market (the primary market) would police the secondary market for repairs. In reality, this kind of policing is hard to come by because of the time and expense of figuring out which company has the cheapest lifecycle1 costs for the equipment (…

I'm pretty sure the farmers know very well the lifecycle costs of their heavy machinery, the problem isn't ill-informed consumers. The problem is the time as well as expense of repairs is controlled by the manufacturers.

The razor example isn't analogous here, you can pretty much plan for when you need new blades. A farmer can't predict when the equipment will break down.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#135

Post by choward » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #11

korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

It's not complicated. John Deere wants to milk their customers for more money.

s/John Deere/Every company ever

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#136

Post by dandelo1953 » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

ossworkerrights wrote: post #112

sangnoir wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have I missed anyone? "Security-minded" folk who insist corporates should have full control of their device via signed code from pre-boot, incidentally preventing "non-authorised" replacement parts from working since repair is an attack vector, allegedly.

Apple

$1000, as seen in terms of security is not much to spend on something "perishable". Fixing your secure phone takes more than knowing how to RTFM.....

Which means bringing it to repair shop.... which means evil maid or whatever mix of flavor of vulns that creates

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#137

Post by Balanceinfinity » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:36 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #125

Balanceinfinity wrote: post #120

An economist would say that when considering buying this machinery the farmer would also consider the cost and availability of repairs and that the competition in the machinery market (the primary market) would police the secondary market for repairs. In reality, this kind of policing is hard to come by because of the time and expense of figuring out which company has the cheapest lifecycle1 costs for the equipment (…

When buying, if there are contractual strings attached to the use of the asset then it's more of a lease purchase than actual asset purchase. As it is now, farmers that are purchasing the asset are saying they want to use the asset as they deem fit, including repairs.

agreed. But when they purchased the machines, they should have looked at the services terms and taken that into account when making their purchases. If there's competition in the market (no idea) then presumably someone would try to beat its competitors by offering a better service option (such as unlocked diagnostics).

This issue went to the supreme court on the question of whether a manufacturer could "monopolize" its aftermarket. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastman_Kodak_Co._v._Image_Tec....

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#138

Post by jay_kyburz » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

squish78 wrote: post #132

jay_kyburz wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often wondered if our government has some massive stores of grain somewhere to feed the nation for a few years in the event of a near total crop failure. Seems irresponsible not to have it. Update: I sometimes wonder what it would take for me to have a year of food in reserve here at home, but I worry that its just the crazy Prepper in me trying to come out.

Think on this topic long enough, and you'll find yourself starting a vegetable garden in the spring.

Good exercise away from the computer, and nice fresh food too. Makes a lot of sense.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#139

Post by dandelo1953 » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

p1necone wrote: post #103

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #100

Thinking of who wouldn't vote for right to repair I can only come up with: 1. leaders of companies that would be adversely affected by right to repair 2. perhaps employees of same companies but that seems iffy as I doubt the adverse effects would be so great as to threaten employment. 3. People who actually think that although it would be to their benefit to have a right to repair there is an encroachment on a compan…

I don't know, Americans seem to be relatively more in favor of allowing corporations to screw them than many other countries.

We have given companies the freedom to LIE.

Hello, ad industry at large....

We're neck deep in it. Of course no one recognizes it.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#140

Post by Paul-ish » Mon, Dec 16, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

There was a couple I had heard about who bought an electric car. They took their electric car to a shop that promised more millage (or faster charging, I can't remember which). As it turns out this custom modification killed the battery in a few short years, when it was supposed to last much longer. The couple was not happy with their purchase, and they never connected that the work they had done was related to their vehicles shortcomings.

If we are charitable in our interpretation of manufacturers positions, keeping customers from "tinkering" with devices maintains the brand's image and prevents unexpected product failure or safety misshaps.