Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

uspirg.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 439 posts

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#61

Post by squish78 »

wiremine wrote: post #58

Disclaimer: I'm a VP for an IoT software company. I also grew up in farming communities. I'm all for the right to repair, but I'm concerned we're creating a bit of false hope for famers. As more and more software gets injected into the equipment, "fixing" things requires touching both the physical devices and the software. Obviously, the right to repair for non-software related problems is easy to understand. I'm won…

Less reliance on the tech sector for hardware solutions, and more research in logistics and supply chain. Let farmers farm.

They are proving that it can be done with more profitability acre-for-acre with hand tools than tractors

https://www.neversinkfarm.com/

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#62

Post by userbinator »

kempbellt wrote: post #45
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

I'm for right-to-repair, but I'll give it a shot in defense of manufacturers. A lot of people assume it's just "evil-corp" greed. All of these reasons are money based, but not necessarily malicious. Liability: If a customer repairs a machine improperly and it causes more problems, or someone gets hurt, it can paint the manufacturer in a bad light. Many farmers know how to operate a tractor safely, but might not know…

If a customer repairs a machine improperly and it causes more problems, or someone gets hurt, it can paint the manufacturer in a bad light.

The automotive industry, for which a huge aftermarket exists, has dealt with that argument before, and in general it seems the manufacturers are not responsible for anything but the defects they themselves create (hence recalls.) If anything, trying to lock things down only means the manufacturer wants to take on more responsibility, not less. Tesla is a notable exception to the tradition.

Also, as a hardware product, what happens when you make a minor revision? You send out a whole new book on Tractor v3.8973 (has slightly different brakes than 3.8972 because the brake manufacturer went out of business and Deere needed to find another).

This is a solved problem and has been for over a century; design changes mean you add a new section (or maybe just a paragraph, depending on the extent of the changes) to the manual. Here's an example from 70 years ago:

http://buick.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/1948/1948-1950%...

Hardcopy manuals for large and complex products often come in (sometimes multiple!) 3-ring binders, so that new material can be added easily. These days, it could be as simple as uploading a new PDF to a website.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#63

Post by vorpalhex »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #29
eastof wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get really good support from Lineage OS for years to come. Been running it on all my android devices for years. The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support.

> The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support. When was the last time you checked on this? As far as I can see, LineageOS support is pretty much restricted to phones that have had it for years. There is no hope if you have a recent phone. There's also no hope if you have an old phone, unless it's already supported. For example, the most recent Pixel with support is... the Pixel. The original.

Lineage depends on the community to issue device specific builds. For instance, my dual sim traveling phone has no official Lineage support, but is well supported through the community (and indeed, everything works quite well).

I do wish Lineage had a way to promote and adopt community versions more officially.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#64

Post by celticmusic »

wiremine wrote: post #58

Disclaimer: I'm a VP for an IoT software company. I also grew up in farming communities. I'm all for the right to repair, but I'm concerned we're creating a bit of false hope for famers. As more and more software gets injected into the equipment, "fixing" things requires touching both the physical devices and the software. Obviously, the right to repair for non-software related problems is easy to understand. I'm won…

Many farmers already run their own version of the software needed for the equipment, complete with its own diagnostic setup. They do this specifically because they cannot get that diagnostic information with the official software (because they don't want farmers working on it themselves).

The question you have to ask yourself is this:

If they're already savvy enough to do that, imagine how much better things will be for them when OSS and/or other 3rd party vendors are able to service the software side for them.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#65

Post by kaffeemitsahne »

dbcurtis wrote: post #36
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

In the early days, farm tractors were pretty simple, and many farmers did a lot of their own work. As machines got bigger, most used local repair shops that could always order from parts depots. But as electronics has invaded tractors (for many good reasons) it has gotten to the point where you really need the diagnostic equipment. So this is a lot like what auto repair was in the early days of the diagnostic plug-in…

I still don't get from your description what the point or motive would be. Who is locking in whom, for what purpose?

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#66

Post by ProZsolt »

aguyfromnb wrote: post #47
ISL wrote: post #14

Right to repair is increasingly hitting people outside of agrarian/industrial contexts. This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. I have a tablet that long-ago met the same fate. This is in the same world where I can 'apt-get update' my seven-year old desktop and work with ap…

> This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. The same thing happened recently with the Chromebook I purchased for my significant other. She's a very light computer user, so we thought it was a perfect device. It was great, until one day she received a message saying, essential…

You should get ~7 years of update. Here you can check: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en

I think it should be more, but it's on par with MacBooks

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#67

Post by netsharc »

eastof wrote: post #20
ISL wrote: post #14

Right to repair is increasingly hitting people outside of agrarian/industrial contexts. This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. I have a tablet that long-ago met the same fate. This is in the same world where I can 'apt-get update' my seven-year old desktop and work with ap…

You can get really good support from Lineage OS for years to come. Been running it on all my android devices for years. The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support.

I ordered a cheap Android phone the other day because installing a non-OEM OS like Lineage mean... banking software doesn't work. I have an older phone but the last stock ROM on it is Android 5, although it is currently running Lineage with Android 9. So I bought that phone to keep at stock and have a phone I can do my banking with.

Come to think of it, I should just switch banks!

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#68

Post by vorpalhex »

probably_wrong wrote: post #31
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

Not that I agree with them, but some of the rationales I heard: That it makes a company liable in case someone repairs their truck and it blows up, since they can't prove that the two were related. Also to consider: the machine blows up after a repair, but it's not related to that. That it might force companies to publish business secrets: with machine being full of computers nowadays, they might be forced to reveal…

> That it makes a company liable in case someone repairs their truck and it blows up

Is this the case for auto shops now?

> That it might force companies to publish business secrets

There are many, many ways to compile and preserve business secrets in blobs, but there's probably a fundamental issue if you're dependent on that.

> someone finds a flaw in the API, uses it to ruin other people's machines, and then the company gets sued for it

If you publish crappy code in your paid product and someone suffers for it, you should be sued. That's not a consequence, that's the system working.

> That it forces companies to sell pieces that are not profitable

The company has a line of profit - the initial device. This is not forcing them to take on a new business, this is forcing them to support the purchase I already made. If you can't sell spare parts, don't sell tractors. If you can't handle a support call, don't take my money.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#69

Post by ChicagoBoy11 »

dbcurtis wrote: post #36
korabas wrote: post #8

Honest question: what would be the rationale to prevent farmers from repairing their machinery themselves instead of through the manufacturer (in this case, Deere)? To my mind, from the point of view of the "user" (i.e. the farmer), that can be seen as somewhat monopolistic. I tried to find similarities between this situation and that of Apple not letting users tamper with their hardware, but it could be argued that…

In the early days, farm tractors were pretty simple, and many farmers did a lot of their own work. As machines got bigger, most used local repair shops that could always order from parts depots. But as electronics has invaded tractors (for many good reasons) it has gotten to the point where you really need the diagnostic equipment. So this is a lot like what auto repair was in the early days of the diagnostic plug-in…

It's actually much worse. All of the electronics also causes the machine to collect quite a bit of data on how/when it is used. WRT to the individual farmer, that data now has value and the manufacturer can extract that value by requiring the customer to pay to have access to it. At scale, that data can be sold off to hedge funds and other wall street shops to help inform data trading algorithm on grain futures and the like, so that too is an incentive to try and prevent joe schmo from having access to it.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#70

Post by thaumasiotes »

vorpalhex wrote: post #63
thaumasiotes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The flagship models like Pixel usually have the best ongoing support. When was the last time you checked on this? As far as I can see, LineageOS support is pretty much restricted to phones that have had it for years. There is no hope if you have a recent phone. There's also no hope if you have an old phone, unless it's already supported. For example, the most recent Pixel with support is... the Pixel. The original.

Lineage depends on the community to issue device specific builds. For instance, my dual sim traveling phone has no official Lineage support, but is well supported through the community (and indeed, everything works quite well). I do wish Lineage had a way to promote and adopt community versions more officially.

> I do wish Lineage had a way to promote and adopt community versions more officially.

They do. That's what official support is. https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/

But they're a dead project.

Post reply on HN