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Having Kids

paulgraham.com

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Re: Having Kids

#561

Post by kelnos »

cushychicken wrote: post #46

...most of the freedom I had before kids, I never used. I paid for it in loneliness, but I never used it. Paul's written a lot of smart stuff, but this might be the smartest. I took a lot of steps to protect my freedom before getting engaged to my partner, and I realize now that was a shitty tradeoff. Freedom was an unexercised resource I had, which is to say it was largely wasted on me. I spent a lot of time being l…

That statement in the article actually turned me off quite a bit. Loneliness is not the opposite of having kids. Having kids is sort of an "easy mode" for filling your time[0]. So sure, if you don't have kids, and don't have a romantic partner, and and don't have friends, and attempt to go through life expecting that you and only you are necessary for entertaining yourself, yeah, you'll be lonely.

Earlier in life I often considered loneliness to be my biggest fear, but I eventually realized that loneliness isn't something that just happens to you. It's a choice. If you don't want that choice, then you have to put in effort to find and maintain friendships[1], find a hopefully-lifelong romantic partner, etc.

Beyond that, though, there are plenty of elderly people who are profoundly lonely because their children have families and lives of their own and rarely see them. Perhaps if they tried harder to maintain relationships outside their nuclear family, they'd be better off. Not saying all that is easy (especially with kids in the mix), but I certainly think it's worthwhile in the end.

[0] "Easy" in that your time will always be filled, with no searching needed on your part; I'm not suggesting that raising kids is easy.

[1] Being friends with parents (when you are not one) is hard, but it's worthwhile to make the time, and be flexible with your time since theirs often isn't.

Re: Having Kids

#563

Post by Aeolun »

incangold wrote: post #333
triangleman wrote: post #131

Hey guys. Anyone else have the experience of having kids, getting a burst of energy, but of course all that energy goes directly back into the kids and house, and you have absolutely no life for 3-5 years or more? Because my kids are 2 and 4 and so far it's been 4 years of no life, no freelance clients, almost no learning/hobbies, just 35-40 hours a week of working as much as I can at the office and then everything i…

I read a sentence just before our first son was born that I’m glad I heard. “One day, your parents put you down and never picked you up again”. Every time my son woke me up in the night I would cherish every exhausted second of holding him.

I guess I finally figured out what value people see in weightlifting. They’re just making comfortably sure this never happens to them.

Re: Having Kids

#564

Post by remarkEon »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #379

Paradoxically, I think the hard part about having kid is having too few of them. My wife and I have 7 kids. People stare at us like we're crazy all the time. But it's way easier to have 7 kids than 2. Older kids help with the younger kids. When the 2 or 3 playing together get bored, they mix it up. They have daily big games that would ordinarily take a lot of effort arranging playdates. Many hands make light work, so…

Both my grandparents had 7 kids, and I recall a conversation when I was maybe 7 or 8, when my mom had stopped at 3, where my grandmother made the same point you're making - that you should keep going. She did stop, and regrets it now.

Re: Having Kids

#565

Post by fountainofage »

User23 wrote: post #224
SubuSS wrote: post #198

One thing that I don't see much discussion on is a single income setup. My wife was employed when our daughter was born (oh lord 13 years ago) but we had hired help (this was in India - that was a very affordable option). Eventually she decided to stay at home because she wanted more family time and quite possibly that's the best thing that ever happened to our family. Suddenly all of us had time and the luxury of on…

In my observation a single income setup is some kind of local optimum. I've never met a full time homemaker who thinks she's getting a raw deal. It is a real job that requires an exceptional level of responsibility, creativity, and effort, but it's one that is extremely financially and emotionally rewarding. When I ask they all say, essentially, "We didn't want work just to hire someone else to raise our children for…

Just want to say - the prices I've seen for that hired help in California is more along the lines of $25 per hour to start. And that's just to watch the kid - additional housework will cost more. And that also doesn't include paying for their vacation time.

Re: Having Kids

#566

Post by kelnos »

Invictus0 wrote: post #463
gtirloni wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as they say, it's not wasted time if you enjoyed wasting it.

Parent is saying he didn't enjoy wasting it. He didn't choose to be alone.

Except he says that he did: "I took a lot of steps to protect my freedom..."

Re: Having Kids

#567

Post by blotter_paper »

rootusrootus wrote: post #508
markus_zhang wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's basically two worlds: People who have kids (and people who really want kids) and people who don't (and people who don't want). They can't understand each other and most of one camp think the other camp dull and crazy. It's just pov, and yeah, I keep distances from people with kids when the kids are around, because very possible they will leave their kids to me to gain a couple of hours to themselves.

> I keep distances from people with kids when the kids are around, because very possible they will leave their kids to me to gain a couple of hours to themselves. I recognize that you certainly have your unique circle of acquaintances, but in general I find the above statement to be extremely improbable. Not only would I never leave my kids with an unwilling babysitter, it's actually the opposite -- you have to convi…

I've seen both, and anecdotally suspect that it correlates with economic status.

Re: Having Kids

#568

Post by throwaway88444 »

I grew up watching heartwarming TV shows and movies about families sharing wonderful adventures together. If you expect this, you will likely be disappointed. Those moments can be super rare.

Some kids are introverted, or mildly autistic, and are super-reluctant to communicate. You can tell it's painful for them, regardless of how good of parent you try to be, or how many parenting books you read. They may shut you out.

Meanwhile, other parents will brag about how miraculous their amazing children are, implying it's the norm. And to them it is, so what can you say?

Other non-parents will say things like, "oh, why don't you make them do ____", as if it's that simple. Turns out kids are their own persons, who rarely happily just do what you ask.

Re: Having Kids

#569

Post by kelnos »

philwelch wrote: post #190
quadrifoliate wrote: post #68

Ironically, this essay shows the biggest problem I have with having kids -- especially in the US, people with kids seem to single-mindedly focus on them and can't stop telling you about their kids . What remains of their social lives and all their holidays seem to revolve around the kids. I think pg echoes a bit of this sentiment himself when he says: > To some extent I'm like a religious cultist telling you that you…

I think it’s the other way around: somehow we tried to build ourselves a civilization without children at all. I think in most human cultures, children are considered an important if not primary concern. Not having children well into adulthood is a modern privilege—one could even characterize modern childless adulthood as merely an extension of our own childhoods. But by starting to normalize childless adulthood, we’…

There's a difference between using kid-talk as a way to find common ground and bond with other people, and being literally unable to talk about anything but your kids. That latter bit actually does happen with a disturbingly-significant number of my friends who are parents.

The main commonality among parents I know who are afflicted with this problem is that they have no or few relatives living nearby. Those who have relatives (especially their own parents) nearby seem to be more well adjusted. While they still talk about their kids a lot, they can at least speak about other interests and events unrelated to the kids.

One of my friends who also is able to talk about other things is a freelancer and is not a workaholic. I suspect number of hours worked to be correlated here too.

Re: Having Kids

#570

Post by Bostonian »

This essay reminds of the book "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids" (2012) by economist Bryan Caplan, which I suggest to people thinking about how many children to have.
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