Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card • Hacker News Board

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#91

Post by Alex3917 » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 6:42 AM UTC

jbapple wrote: post #90

Alex3917 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's insane that credit card rewards are even legal, given that they're basically just a direct transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy.

Can you explain more?

People with no money can't get credit cards. People with and without credit cards (usually) pay the same price for any given item, and since credit card rewards are payed for by merchant fees, that means that every time someone buys something with cash a percentage of their money is being skimmed off the top to subsidize those who buy the same items using credit cards.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#92

Post by jbapple » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 7:28 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #91

jbapple wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain more?

People with no money can't get credit cards. People with and without credit cards (usually) pay the same price for any given item, and since credit card rewards are payed for by merchant fees, that means that every time someone buys something with cash a percentage of their money is being skimmed off the top to subsidize those who buy the same items using credit cards.

Got it; thanks for explaining.

I suppose in a microecon 101 model, there’s some elasticity that causes the cost of the fees to be borne partially by the merchants?

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#93

Post by snypox » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 11:44 AM UTC

moftz wrote: post #48

snypox wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in the US (Nevada and Cali) I was so surprised how many places don’t accept contactless payment. Here in Hungary, even the smallest convenience stores accept it.

I remember commercials like 15 years ago advertising the contactless cards but never have actually seen anyone use them in the US except for things like Apple/Android Pay. Lots of CC terminals have the symbol but it's never used. I remember a waiter in Europe trying to tap my card on the CC terminal multiple times before I mentioned that it's just a chip.

Yeah, here in Europe you'll never see anyone (European) using chip.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#94

Post by ksec » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 12:04 PM UTC

snypox wrote: post #17

kstrauser wrote: post #5

I don't like retailers storing my credit card info in dodgy databases that end up on the dark web. I understand that stores don't want to lose all their profit to interchange fees. That's reasonable. At the same time, I personally wouldn't be so dogmatic about using Apple Pay or an Apple Card if I hadn't had my debit card ganked five times in the last seven years. In other words, they've brought this on themselves, a…

When I was in the US (Nevada and Cali) I was so surprised how many places don’t accept contactless payment. Here in Hungary, even the smallest convenience stores accept it.

Which is what irritates me most when Apple brags about how Apple Pay has made way into Contactless payment in US and how many Contact less payment terminals has been added due to Apple Pay.

When the rest of the world had the whole system in place waiting or crying for Apple Pay. In the early days they couldn't be bothered.

Apple Pay was introduced 5 years ago, yet in 2019 they somehow managed to sign up ( or make it work ) with more regions and banks than all of the 2017 and 2018 combined.

They were so fixated on certain market like Germany and Australia as if they were blocking procedures.

I hope most of the world dont have to wait 5 years for Apple Card.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#95

Post by ksec » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 12:08 PM UTC

Despite the limit on processing fee in EU, Australia and China, Visa is a 400B Company while Master is 300B.

Collecting ~1.5% on Global average spending turns out to be very lucrative business. ( Or they have other means of revenue I am not aware of )

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#96

Post by nojvek » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 1:38 PM UTC

I love what ARCO does. Pay with cash it’s cheaper. That’s what most businesses should do. Cash is 5% cheaper for businesses than card.

Give that 5% discount. Customers love discounts.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#97

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #96

I love what ARCO does. Pay with cash it’s cheaper. That’s what most businesses should do. Cash is 5% cheaper for businesses than card. Give that 5% discount. Customers love discounts.

> Cash is 5% cheaper for businesses than card.

Do you have a source for this?

https://squareup.com/us/en/townsquare/myths-about-cash (full disclosure: clearly a potentially biased source)

> Research shows that cash-handling costs range from 4.7 to 15.3 percent of revenues for businesses that accept cash. The majority of those costs are associated with starting and closing drawers at the start and end of the day.

> Said another way, for every $100 a business makes in cash, it’s spending $4.70–$15.30 to handle all the costs associated with managing the drawer, preparing deposits, making change orders, dealing with possible theft or fraud, and auditing. Fewer cash transactions means less time counting money, less time making change, and a lower likelihood of mistakes or theft.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#98

Post by pwinnski » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:35 PM UTC

allthecybers wrote: post #88

kshacker wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, its always the "freedom" that wins!

In America, its always the "illusion of freedom" that wins!

Oh, it's freedom--but freedom for whom? Freedom from what?

The financier's freedom from regulation makes it easier for them to limit the freedom of the financed. The borrower's freedom from deception makes it harder for the banker to achieve record profits.

In this case, the merchants got their freedom, and it seemed like a win for consumers too... until it was time to upgrade.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#99

Post by pkaye » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 6:20 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #58

Ninn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in the EU the user and retailer directly pay all fees, and the size of the fees and transparency is regulated.

Also, in most other countries, merchants are allowed to explicitly charge extra for paying by credit card.

Merchants are allowed to charge a surcharge for credit card usage in the US.

Re: Retailers Don’t Like Paying the Fees for Apple Card

#100

Post by oasisbob » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #99

supernova87a wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, in most other countries, merchants are allowed to explicitly charge extra for paying by credit card.

Merchants are allowed to charge a surcharge for credit card usage in the US.

IIRC, even now they're still not allowed under the network rules.

A cash discount IS allowed. So, a $.10/gal cash discount for gas is OK. The register having a sign that says "we charge $.75 for card transactions under $30" is not. Not that you don't see that all the time...

(It's been a while since I've drank the regulatory alphabet soup on this, could be mistaken. )