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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#191

Post by slumdev »

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

I've shot down two companies in the past three days because they made it known during the recruitment that they expected more than 40 hours a week, sometimes well in excess of it.

It's always couched in some doublespeak about "ownership". Trust me, if I were owner or part-owner in the enterprise, I wouldn't mind. But I'm not.

People complain about entitlement attitudes among the young. They need to look at employers if they really want to see entitlement.

It sounds like your boss feels entitled to your time without taking an ownership stake in your professional development.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#192

Post by downerending »

rectang wrote: post #76

I'm currently negotiating with two potential employers, one of them one of the bigs. It would be great if they would pay me to learn at work, but I don't feel like I'm in a position to ask for that — that's an industry=wide problem. So I'm trying to hack the system to get fewer hours: 30-32 per week. That gives me enough time to self-study, handle some of my own training and overdeliver, yet still have a life. I have…

Voice of experience: Companies are incapable of thinking this way. Instead, take the 40 and simply siphon off 8-10 for your personal education.

As long as you're not actually working for a different company during this time, it's all good. If company doesn't like it, move on.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#193

Post by Braggadocious »

yters wrote: post #177
Braggadocious wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how a liberal arts education is "divergent from the norm" now. The primary function of university is to make people read for four years. Business degrees, CS degrees, essentially job training programs are a bastardization of the institution.

My particular liberal arts program is "divergent from the norm," including modern liberal arts programs. Just about all programs, liberal arts or otherwise, are completely framed within an enlightenment view of reality, largely due to dogmatic materialism. Classes that do diverge from materialism have lost a coherent way to talk about an alternate worldview, leaving their terminology sounding very wishy washy and ill…

Off topic but that still sounds like it's framed within the enlightenment period. If you're reading books and valuing literacy, (ie individual interpretations of texts, as opposed to being told what a book means) then you're still framed within the "enlightenment view of reality."

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#194

Post by whateveracct »

znpy wrote: post #74
Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

The middle ground here is that I'd try to grasp the basics on my own time, then ask the switch. I can understand your boss though: would you swap a competent employee for an incompetent one, paying the same amount? Probably not. Yes, you retain your knowledge about the front-end, but you wouldn't be using that. My advice would be to work out the basics on your time and then ask somebody in the backend team to be invo…

If that competent employee wants to switch career tracks and you won't facilitate that, they'll just go get hired somewhere else that will.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#195

Post by y-c-o-m-b »

shantly wrote: post #178
y-c-o-m-b wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That takes a lot of courage, kudos. I've been in tech since 2006. I started out as a min wage tech support agent and worked my way up to a lead software dev position now. I do both back-end (C#) and front-end (Vue, Angular, React) development. In the last 3 months, I've switched jobs twice in a fruitless effort chasing that sense of passion and excitement I had a decade ago. I have it great; I make a 6-fig salary, I…

> I have it great; I make a 6-fig salary, I work remote full time, and never more than 40 hours. I feel guilty for complaining, but the work is just damn boring. I would rather be a janitor than code anymore. Some days I sit and just stare at my screen for an hour depressed as hell wondering how I'm going to get out of this and still provide for my family. We have chronic medical issues, so the insurance alone makes…

Managing a campground sounds amazing. I worked at a gas station/food mart for 4 years before getting into tech. To this day I still have dreams where I'm doing that job and having a great time interacting with my coworkers and people while performing mildly physically demanding work. One of my buddies still begs me to come back and work with him. Just like you - if they paid me 75% as much comp/benefits - I would go back in a heartbeat. Ideally I would be a forest ranger; I live in the Pacific NW and I love the outdoors, so it's only fitting.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#196

Post by whateveracct »

ken wrote: post #25
Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

I’m amazed to hear this from programmers. You can learn this for free, anywhere, at any time. I’m no longer in software and when I want to upgrade my skills, I’m doing it on my own time and my own dime. Often doubly so if I have to take time off work (hourly) for training.

I don't want to spend my time outside work hours developing skills needed for my job. That's effectively the job stealing my time and money.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#197

Post by 98codes »

garrettdc wrote: post #141
Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

Not to undercut your point too much, but no one comes out of university learning about the latest and greatest tech unless they went to a graduate program where they did research in tech. They may have played around with it more on their own time, but most universities aren't teaching cutting edge stuff.

And yet so many dev interviews are focused on the things that they grill you on in CS classes for four years, yet most devs will then hardly touch for the rest of their careers.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#198

Post by slumdev »

chewyshine wrote: post #89
Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

Maybe the lead made a mistake. Or, I hate to say it but...maybe OP isn't viewed as HiPo and worth the perceived investment. There's always another side to a story.

> HiPo

I thought this was a new battery technology and had to google it.

https://hr.toolbox.com/articles/hr-hipos-identifying-hipos-h...

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#199

Post by nogabebop23 »

avgDev wrote: post #109
yters wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is a total racket. We pay these institutions to be treated like their low level employees to provide job training for companies. Corporations have successfully offloaded their training responsibilities onto a process that used to be much broader than vocational training.

I disagree. I went to a state University and it really made me a better person. I worked in groups with diverse group of people and while it was tough I enjoyed the experience. Plus, it wasn't really that expensive considering my income now and before. However, I guess non-technical/engineering degrees have different results.

People going to university in order to get a good job are playing the wrong game. Anyone looking primarily at the "cost vs. future earnings" for any particular program or course in a university setting is

1. not going to find a good economic deal

2. not going to get any true value

3. not going to have fun

You're better to take a 2-year programming diploma or go into the trades if you want the highest short/midterm pay-off.

If you're playing a longer term strategic game and actually enjoy learning for the sake of growing (i.e. you do it on your own regardless) look at the career-long pay-off.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#200

Post by mmsimanga »

runninganyways wrote: post #79
1-6 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question, this is what I was wondering as well.

Well I dropped the golden handcuffs. So right now I'm flipping cars (replace a clutch, head gasket, etc.) driving for Lyft, and I might get a part-time job. I'm definitely not making as much money as I used to. But for me the traditional strategy of working for a company and saving up for retirement wasn't working anyhow. it was like well I'm either going to have to deal with this now when I can do something about it…

Good stuff and good luck. I totally identify with how you feel. I have to take the more measured route, try things after work. You are right about physical work, it is rewarding. Hydroponics is where I spend my spare time.
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