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Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

sloanreview.mit.edu

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Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#101

Post by sasper »

aczerepinski wrote: post #83

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it. I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they com…

As an engineering manager, this is what I expect my top performers to do and encourage my junior folks to do the same. It benefits the IC, the delivery team, and the company at large.

You can't heads-down slam out code for 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Be responsible with your time and use it to push forward the vision & mission of the company by taking your professional development into your own hands.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#102

Post by philjr »

sasper wrote: post #101
aczerepinski wrote: post #83

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it. I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they com…

As an engineering manager, this is what I expect my top performers to do and encourage my junior folks to do the same. It benefits the IC, the delivery team, and the company at large. You can't heads-down slam out code for 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Be responsible with your time and use it to push forward the vision & mission of the company by taking your professional development into your own hands.

110% agreed

I've always felt a level of entitlement around that. You (the business) want me to learn and get better. You get more value over time that way.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#103

Post by wedowhatwedo »

runninganyways wrote: post #23

This is one of the reasons I quit programming. I could be spending time improving as a developer but instead they've got me doing some totally inconsequential "bug" fix (spend the next two hours updating this translation for the third time). I just got sick of someone rationalizing me doing non work by saying it's better for the business as though I have no broader perspective of what might be better for the business…

You do not understand what it is to be a programmer. Programmers fix bugs. It might be boring but it's required. Programmers document. It also might be boring but it's required. Programmers write unit tests. We've hired people that don't want to do the non-fun stuff. They don't last long, they generally come in, cause problems for the team and then leave. The people that are willing to do what's needed even if it isn't fun are much better to have on a team.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#104

Post by danbr »

Braggadocious wrote: post #82
Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

Plumbers and electricians don’t go to school for multiple years to learn a trade, they apprentice - learning on the job, until they get to the point where they propel themselves forward.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#105

Post by avgDev »

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

Oof. I would honestly look for another job and tell them you want to be able to learn new stuff on the job. If you have a job you can go as far as saying, if "I'm not learning anything new I am wasting my time".

Companies should encourage people to learn stuff on the job, because no tutorials or classes can really teach you the day to day struggles.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#106

Post by [deleted] »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #99
Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

You're correct but the difficulty is finding an alternative. Training employees who are then free to take their skills to another company that didn't bother with training gives that company the ability to lure workers away with higher salaries. There is a bit of tragedy of the commons in the skilled labor pool.

[deleted]

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#107

Post by vianneychevalie »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #99
Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

You're correct but the difficulty is finding an alternative. Training employees who are then free to take their skills to another company that didn't bother with training gives that company the ability to lure workers away with higher salaries. There is a bit of tragedy of the commons in the skilled labor pool.

Won't it mechanically increase skilled people's wages?

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#108

Post by steve76 »

I have a machine design book which ends with "Students think engineers spend their time doing calculations, and when hired, are usually shocked to find the job is all communication."

That communication, it isn't kindergarten. My impression of it is more like Dodge City or Deadwood, 100% adversarial. Pay you $1 only if you move and spend $2. Warmly welcome young people because they were trained in something they make money off of. Move the market with their tech, only to pull the rug out from under their customer. Completely arbitrary barrier after barrier of entry with nothing applicable to the market, usually just to hide their own mistakes and profit greatly from it.

All they do is make their money churning people. Customers, employees, everyone. When you pass the interview, you find out the boss just dumped $100,000 on some service contract, sold so they only buy their stuff.

It's never about doing the right thing or even just making life nice and fun. It's about being right, and being the only one who is right. What bosses don't understand is the graveyard's full of millions of tycoons, millions of leaders. Whatever they are trying to do doesn't work. They just go bumbling along trying to stay out of prison.

Make something on your own that's better, right out of the gate they set you up to dump all their problems on you. You're not winning anything, just opening up a gate unleashing hell on everyone. Tread water long enough, you get fire bombed. Cops really don't care. They just work for the biggest guy, and do the minimal to make that palatable. It is funny how they just roll out, on cue, to take all your stuff.

So here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to make things I want to use, and just send it out. Go ahead and steal it. Make everyone work the way I work. I want you to steal it. Level the playing field, and just be good at what I do and everyone has access to it.

Here's something

Decentralization is at a point where I can setup purchasing bots and run a payment api off of that. Someone wants to buy something, they use someone else's card, and there's no central server, so there.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#109

Post by avgDev »

yters wrote: post #86
Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

University is a total racket. We pay these institutions to be treated like their low level employees to provide job training for companies. Corporations have successfully offloaded their training responsibilities onto a process that used to be much broader than vocational training.

I disagree. I went to a state University and it really made me a better person. I worked in groups with diverse group of people and while it was tough I enjoyed the experience. Plus, it wasn't really that expensive considering my income now and before.

However, I guess non-technical/engineering degrees have different results.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#110

Post by yters »

GhostVII wrote: post #100
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you try to study some of those broader topics, you're a sucker - don't study philosophy when an extra accounting or STEM course would be a "better" use of your time. So you super specialize and then after 4 years of college and 5 years in industry you're burnt out you have few other skills, so the only option is to get back onto the education treadmill to bet on another highly specific vocation where you once…

At my school I was required to take many courses on broader topics. Personally I didn't like it, I took as many CS courses as I was allowed.

Yes, due to the vocational focus, the broader topics are often watered down introductions.
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