Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#161

Post by rurp » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

runninganyways wrote: post #79

1-6 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question, this is what I was wondering as well.

Well I dropped the golden handcuffs. So right now I'm flipping cars (replace a clutch, head gasket, etc.) driving for Lyft, and I might get a part-time job. I'm definitely not making as much money as I used to. But for me the traditional strategy of working for a company and saving up for retirement wasn't working anyhow. it was like well I'm either going to have to deal with this now when I can do something about it…

That's awesome you took the plunge; jumping off the cliff is probably the hardest part. It's not easy but people who are smart and motivated are really good at figuring things out when they need to, it's just that so many take safe but unfulfilling path.

I went the opposite direction, leaving a comfortable but soul-sucking job in a totally different industry to transition into programming. It was rough for a few years as I was struggling to build up my experience and make enough money to get by on, but now I have a great job that I actually enjoy going to.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#162

Post by tilolebo » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

keeptrying wrote: post #16

I even setup my reports with a skills matrix which shows the skills they need to get to. Still find them not really pushing themselves.

I got the same idea during my last team lead gig.

I introduced a "interests & responsibilities" matrix, supposed to align team members skills with their interests.

Goal was to: * ensure all needed skills are covered within the team * foster collaboration between knowledgeable persons and those wanting to gain more expertise.

But it's quite hard to use if you don't tie it to the team processes. It has to be visible and integrated to the team's workflow.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#163

Post by y-c-o-m-b » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

runninganyways wrote: post #79

1-6 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question, this is what I was wondering as well.

Well I dropped the golden handcuffs. So right now I'm flipping cars (replace a clutch, head gasket, etc.) driving for Lyft, and I might get a part-time job. I'm definitely not making as much money as I used to. But for me the traditional strategy of working for a company and saving up for retirement wasn't working anyhow. it was like well I'm either going to have to deal with this now when I can do something about it…

That takes a lot of courage, kudos. I've been in tech since 2006. I started out as a min wage tech support agent and worked my way up to a lead software dev position now. I do both back-end (C#) and front-end (Vue, Angular, React) development. In the last 3 months, I've switched jobs twice in a fruitless effort chasing that sense of passion and excitement I had a decade ago.

I have it great; I make a 6-fig salary, I work remote full time, and never more than 40 hours. I feel guilty for complaining, but the work is just damn boring. I would rather be a janitor than code anymore. Some days I sit and just stare at my screen for an hour depressed as hell wondering how I'm going to get out of this and still provide for my family. We have chronic medical issues, so the insurance alone makes it hard to escape. The great recession also left me with severe anxiety about being broke and unemployed.

I recently rebuilt a manual transmission with minimal prior experience working on cars and it made me feel so damn good afterwards, so I really respect your decision to work on cars. I agree, it feels great to do manual labor! I spend my free time doing manual work around the house like yard work or building things like a green-house. I'm learning a lot and having a great time, but when I sit down at the desk it makes me even more depressed about coding.

I hope it all works out for you.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#164

Post by shantly » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

ck425 wrote: post #87

himynameisdom wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I moved into Agile/DevOps coaching, where it's expected you learn in order to help your teams grow and improve their practices and products. Haven't looked back. I now spend a lot of time advocating on behalf of my teams to get them in-sprint time to learn and mature what they're interested in.

How did you make that transition? I've been interested in making a similar one but have been frequently advised to stay in engineering and work my way into management instead.

The thing making me want out is having to change jobs every few years not to fall way behind on current pay, and having, for interviews, to prep for a series of goddamn pop-quizzes in a high-pressure environment, which could cover material from any or all parts of your education or career, plus a bunch of stuff you may well never have encountered in either, at practically any difficulty or granularity level, with, usually, no way to narrow the field you need to prep for down meaningfully even if the roles you're applying for are pretty specific, and usually with no clear understanding of how your performance will be judged. It's the only thing I've encountered in adult life that gives me stress-dreams like school did. "Normal" job stress, even when shit's on fire, is about 10% as stessful, at worst. I hate, hate, hate it.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#165

Post by leshow » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #96

yters wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is a total racket. We pay these institutions to be treated like their low level employees to provide job training for companies. Corporations have successfully offloaded their training responsibilities onto a process that used to be much broader than vocational training.

And if you try to study some of those broader topics, you're a sucker - don't study philosophy when an extra accounting or STEM course would be a "better" use of your time. So you super specialize and then after 4 years of college and 5 years in industry you're burnt out you have few other skills, so the only option is to get back onto the education treadmill to bet on another highly specific vocation where you once…

This is a very pessimistic world view. I found in the engineering faculty that the subjects we were taught were very broad. However, I continued to learn on my own in my free time after I got my degree. I've been doing this consistently for the last 8 years or so. I now have completely new skills and much more depth on knowledge on CS topics than I had coming out of university.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#166

Post by zerr » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

himynameisdom wrote: post #62

runninganyways wrote: post #23

This is one of the reasons I quit programming. I could be spending time improving as a developer but instead they've got me doing some totally inconsequential "bug" fix (spend the next two hours updating this translation for the third time). I just got sick of someone rationalizing me doing non work by saying it's better for the business as though I have no broader perspective of what might be better for the business…

Same here. I moved into Agile/DevOps coaching, where it's expected you learn in order to help your teams grow and improve their practices and products. Haven't looked back. I now spend a lot of time advocating on behalf of my teams to get them in-sprint time to learn and mature what they're interested in.

Sorry for being too direct, but for the sake of clarity, and coming from my experience communicating with agile coaches - I think it is bullshit. I wonder if others have a similar experience/opinion...

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#167

Post by Ididntdothis » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #76

I'm currently negotiating with two potential employers, one of them one of the bigs. It would be great if they would pay me to learn at work, but I don't feel like I'm in a position to ask for that — that's an industry=wide problem. So I'm trying to hack the system to get fewer hours: 30-32 per week. That gives me enough time to self-study, handle some of my own training and overdeliver, yet still have a life. I have…

“40 hours is what they are set up for and it is hard for them to figure out how to be flexible, even if they want to.”

I had the same experience. asked for 32 hours week with corresponding pay cut. The HR people barely could comprehend the idea and certainly didn’t have a process for dealing with such a request.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#168

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

runninganyways wrote: post #79

1-6 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question, this is what I was wondering as well.

Well I dropped the golden handcuffs. So right now I'm flipping cars (replace a clutch, head gasket, etc.) driving for Lyft, and I might get a part-time job. I'm definitely not making as much money as I used to. But for me the traditional strategy of working for a company and saving up for retirement wasn't working anyhow. it was like well I'm either going to have to deal with this now when I can do something about it…

The only thing I’d caution you is that, in my opinion, starting a successful company is 90% about relationships, and you mention feeling “cemented” in your past work relationships. And there might be something there you need to practice, and improve on, before you start your company.

(I say, as someone who is currently staying full-time employed, paused on entrepreneurship, and trying, and often failing, to be better in my work relationships)

That said, best of luck to you. You’re clearly self aware, which will see you through a lot.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#169

Post by metalgearsolid » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

runninganyways wrote: post #23

This is one of the reasons I quit programming. I could be spending time improving as a developer but instead they've got me doing some totally inconsequential "bug" fix (spend the next two hours updating this translation for the third time). I just got sick of someone rationalizing me doing non work by saying it's better for the business as though I have no broader perspective of what might be better for the business…

At my first programming job, my performance suffered when management ran out of things for me to do because I was running the mobile department successfully while the web side of things was constantly on fire. When confronted about the lack of progress on my side, I explained that my sprint tickets were mostly pointless, with no business value. My manager said it's my job to do it anyway. Unfortunately I stuck around for a little while longer after that. I really shouldn't have.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#170

Post by WhiskeyJack55 » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

That you should “always be learning” is absolutely true. It helps with neuro-plasticity and keeps you engaged. That said, as a manager I find it hard to get direct reports to accept sometimes that it is not only okay, but required, by me that they learn new things. I do what I can to encourage it, offer to buy books for people, give time to do online course work, etc. They often complain that they don’t feel like the…

Several companies that friends of mine work at institute a 10% personal project time policy. Where 10% of their week is devoted to personal projects. They pick any topic of interest related to programing, learn something new, and when they are done they show the project to the team to present what they've learned. I don't think they have a time limit per se. Some people I know have done work with the raspberry pi, or learned a new framework, or implemented something they were doing at work in a different language. Leaving it open ended allowed for people to pick something that was of interest to them.

The problem with this approach I think is you get more buy-in, but might be arguably less directly applicable to work.