Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#81

Post by draw_down » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

geocrasher wrote: post #46

“The moment you stop learning is the moment you begin to die.” This quote MADE the article for me. I've been saying something similar for a long time now.

If you stop learning altogether, sure. But I promise there is life after learning about programming, or whatever your job is. There are many things worth learning about.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#82

Post by Braggadocious » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, and because of the larger labor pool they all undercut one another's bargaining ability, lowering wages. If I owned a company and I was lookin to hire I'd be callin that a twofer: free employee training and hiring discounts!

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#83

Post by aczerepinski » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

I’ve always learned on the job and have never asked permission. I guess I’m lucky that I haven’t worked in the type of places where somebody’s looking over my shoulder every minute of the day. Somewhere around an hour a day every day and I’ve been doing it for years and nobody has ever said anything about it.

I subscribe to those weekly emails for the programming languages we use at work and I read them when they come in. I sometimes watch a conference talk about implementing something similar to whatever I’m scheduled to do next.

If I were running a company I’d expect this of all high level employees. It’s your responsibility to be on top of whatever’s going on in your field.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#84

Post by MattyRad » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

I agree making time to learn at work for a job you've had for a while is important, but we should probably make a distinction for newhires. Software has a low barrier to entry and I'm sure many of us have been victim to people who earnestly, but mistakenly, believe they are capable programmers. As a result, they're constantly "learning", in effect turning the job into a classroom, and leaving embittered peers who have to pick up the slack indefinitely. This type of "learning" can be toxic. (Of course, good hiring practices should be able to filter those sorts of people, but hiring practices can be its own can of worms.)

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#85

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

jsjw7sbw wrote: post #40

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a formal mentorship program and employees get 4 hours a month for professional development. We still feel we fail them.

Make that 4 hours a week and maybe you'll feel better.

Unfortunately, HR is in charge of 'professional development'. Noone wants to fight HR and would rather keep their cushy job, get paid and let this thing crater.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#86

Post by yters » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

Braggadocious wrote: post #82

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

You ever think about how much we subsidize businesses by paying for college ourselves? The older I get the more I think the university to corporation pipeline is a fucking racket. It also sucks for employees because here comes these kids who were allowed to learn about all the new technologies you wish you knew with zero distractions and other obligations, now comin' in hot on your heels to take yer jobs en masse, an…

University is a total racket. We pay these institutions to be treated like their low level employees to provide job training for companies. Corporations have successfully offloaded their training responsibilities onto a process that used to be much broader than vocational training.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#87

Post by ck425 » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

himynameisdom wrote: post #62

runninganyways wrote: post #23

This is one of the reasons I quit programming. I could be spending time improving as a developer but instead they've got me doing some totally inconsequential "bug" fix (spend the next two hours updating this translation for the third time). I just got sick of someone rationalizing me doing non work by saying it's better for the business as though I have no broader perspective of what might be better for the business…

Same here. I moved into Agile/DevOps coaching, where it's expected you learn in order to help your teams grow and improve their practices and products. Haven't looked back. I now spend a lot of time advocating on behalf of my teams to get them in-sprint time to learn and mature what they're interested in.

How did you make that transition? I've been interested in making a similar one but have been frequently advised to stay in engineering and work my way into management instead.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#88

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #27

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a formal mentorship program and employees get 4 hours a month for professional development. We still feel we fail them.

>4 hours a month for professional development So half a day a month? That's pretty much nothing. Maybe time to work through a couple chapters of a book on some new topic.

Yeah, it's supposed to be on top of their existing 1-1s, but we still feel we fail them.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#89

Post by chewyshine » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:03 PM UTC

Bootwizard wrote: post #9

I'm currently a frontend engineer. I told my team lead a while back that I'd like to transition to the server side, especially since our server team is woefully understaffed and our frontend team is overstaffed. He told me "Sure but you'll need to learn all that stuff on your own time". So I never did it because I'm interested in doing other things at home.

Maybe the lead made a mistake. Or, I hate to say it but...maybe OP isn't viewed as HiPo and worth the perceived investment. There's always another side to a story.

Re: Learning at work is work, and we must make space for it

#90

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Wed, Dec 11, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

eyko wrote: post #37

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a formal mentorship program and employees get 4 hours a month for professional development. We still feel we fail them.

We do 4 hours a week, and I still feel it's too little.

We've just given up on it, I just give people tickets with stuff they want to learn about. "Oh, you want to learn Selenium, here's a ticket that has Selenium"