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If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

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Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#171

Post by noxer »

account73466 wrote: post #167
noxer wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markecap is a meaningless value for a "currency". Comparing it to the marketcaps of companies is even more meaningless. And comparing Bitcoin trade volume with stock trade volume is another meaningless thing. It's very common in the crypto space to use all kinds of correctly calculated nonsense.

Bitcoin is not a currency in its common sense, it is a speculative asset. Call everything meaningless is pretty meaningless as well. >> Comparing it to the marketcaps of companies is even more meaningless Wrong. >> And comparing Bitcoin trade volume with stock trade volume is another meaningless thing. Wrong.

It doesn't matter if it' a currency in your definition or if it isn't. Gold is also not a currency by todays definition. Still no one care about the mcap of gold an certainly no one compares it to mcap of companies because gold isn't a company and neither is bitcoin.

>Wrong. Good argument

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#172

Post by noxer »

this_user wrote: post #170
noxer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cap is irrelevant. Instead of printing more the value per unit goes up in the end it does the same it adjust for growth just fine. It's just not practical for a fiat currency to change it's value depending on the economy situation. If for example the USD would have a fix cap and its value would swing with the economy, people would speculate with it. At peaks everyone would want to buy and at the lows everyone wou…

You sound like you know nothing about how currencies actually work. Both exchange rate and purchasing power of the USD do change over time. People do speculate with currencies. And the cap is absolutely not irrelevant if you were to have a global Bitcoin economy. The US would not be able to set the prices on its own, and those would instead be determined by the global market forces. This means the country loses and a…

No one care what you think I know or don't know bring arguments that support your opinion.

Whats the mcap of USD? Whats the mcap of EUR? Whats the mcap of Gold? Why does no one know exactly? Because It's irrelevant meaningless and basically impossible to know because of lost units and secret holdings (in case of gold)

Ofc people speculate with currencies but not the average joe, whos supposed to use it as a medium of exchange. And that's the whole point. Small fluctuations or small inflation doesn't matter for its use as medium of exchange.

The whole "global bitcoin economy" thing wasm't the topic of my post no clue why you tell me this. Also the price of btc is already determined by "global market force" if you wanna call it that way. although it has not much to do with any other market. It's just supply and demand that make the price.

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#174

Post by kelnos »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #113
kelnos wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not my definition but the accepted one is price times number of bitcoins mined so far. Right, but that's essentially a lazy re-definition of the term. I get that it's a bit wordy to always say, "the current total value of all bitcoins is $X billion", but market cap is specifically about the total value of a security's outstanding shares . If people want bitcoin to be treated seriously as a currency , they should st…

> To put it another way, no one would reasonably talk about something like the "market cap of the Euro"[0], so why would you do that for something else claimed to be a currency? Oh, but they do: https://www.dailysabah.com/finance/2017/12/06/bitcoin-renews... And while Market Cap may be on its surface misleading, its mere semantics, and is really in reference to what you've described; its just that as you said, its a…

Er, the article you linked does not even once use the term "market cap" to refer to anything.

Semantics are important. Often perception and optics are just as important as reality. Something that's been a hard lesson for me several times in life...

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#175

Post by account73466 »

noxer wrote: post #172
this_user wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like you know nothing about how currencies actually work. Both exchange rate and purchasing power of the USD do change over time. People do speculate with currencies. And the cap is absolutely not irrelevant if you were to have a global Bitcoin economy. The US would not be able to set the prices on its own, and those would instead be determined by the global market forces. This means the country loses and a…

No one care what you think I know or don't know bring arguments that support your opinion. Whats the mcap of USD? Whats the mcap of EUR? Whats the mcap of Gold? Why does no one know exactly? Because It's irrelevant meaningless and basically impossible to know because of lost units and secret holdings (in case of gold) Ofc people speculate with currencies but not the average joe, whos supposed to use it as a medium of…

>> Whats the mcap of USD?

Start here https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=CURRSL,

and here

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2014/09/how-much-money-is-th...

The currency component of USD doubles every 10 years.

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#177

Post by noxer »

account73466 wrote: post #175
noxer wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one care what you think I know or don't know bring arguments that support your opinion. Whats the mcap of USD? Whats the mcap of EUR? Whats the mcap of Gold? Why does no one know exactly? Because It's irrelevant meaningless and basically impossible to know because of lost units and secret holdings (in case of gold) Ofc people speculate with currencies but not the average joe, whos supposed to use it as a medium of…

>> Whats the mcap of USD? Start here https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=CURRSL , and here https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2014/09/how-much-money-is-th... The currency component of USD doubles every 10 years.

I didn't ask for the mcap of USD. It was a rhetoric question. Ofc you can find numbers and statistics about it. But they are obviously not correct as stated above they do not include any lost money. Also the value is meaningless. Not a single person on this planet does any educated decision based on that value. It's completely irrelevant. And that was my whole point.

If you trade fiat/precious metal or similar assets no chart will ever show the mcap of said asset. But somehow bitcoin and crypto included that value. The only obvious reason that this is a thing, seems to be because crypto space was created by people who have no clue about "money" or how irrelevant the mcap is for these assets.

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#178

Post by yownie »

bduerst wrote: post #160
poontang1 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fundamentally misunderstand how Lightning works. In lightning you literally have a signed bitcoin transaction that allows you to receive the funds on-chain at any time. You don't submit it because you can continue to cooperatively sign new transactions that change respective balances between you and other channel participants. This is nothing like an IOU, because you have the ability to settle any time you want (…

That's precisely the same as an uncashed check - an IOU. Just because you can cash it at any time does not make it different from an IOU. Until settled, it's just a "hey I will pay you some Bitcoin in the future". It's a commitment to a payment that untrusted parties are going to settle immediately for reasons discussed above.

Based on your replies I am going to assume you are actually trying to misinform people.

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#179

Post by account73466 »

noxer wrote: post #177
account73466 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Whats the mcap of USD? Start here https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?id=CURRSL , and here https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2014/09/how-much-money-is-th... The currency component of USD doubles every 10 years.

I didn't ask for the mcap of USD. It was a rhetoric question. Ofc you can find numbers and statistics about it. But they are obviously not correct as stated above they do not include any lost money. Also the value is meaningless. Not a single person on this planet does any educated decision based on that value. It's completely irrelevant. And that was my whole point. If you trade fiat/precious metal or similar assets…

Read again "The currency component of USD doubles every 10 years."

Therefore,

"they do not include any lost money"

is irrelevant unless you believe people lose about half of their money over a single decade

"Not a single person on this planet does any educated decision based on that value. It's completely irrelevant. And that was my whole point."

That is false. Smartest people do take into account the fact that the market cap of USD doubles every decade. Printed money have to go somewhere, they do go in US stocks with the smallest loss on the way. Therefore, US stocks also double every decade. Therefore, it does not make sense to search for investments which deliver less than 8% a year since you are basically losing money relatively to the actual total amount.

>> If you trade fiat/precious metal or similar assets no chart will ever show the mcap of said asset.

Seems like you never traded in your life. First, look at Interactive Brokers, the most popular retail platform. For any stock you click, you see its market cap. Investor do invest differently depending on whether it is large cap or low cap. Google it, learn something. Even Yahoo Finance shows market cap.

You basically have no clue what you are talking about. Not need to reply, you are wasting my time. Cheers.

Re: If Bitcoin Looks Like It Isn’t Trading, It’s Because It Isn’t

#180

Post by blaser-waffle »

bduerst wrote: post #57
rwmj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never owned or traded bitcoin, but as I understand it the main attraction is that it's like the gold standard (of course for people who don't understand why the gold standard was a bad idea).

Bitcoin attracts three different niche markets: - Crypto enthusiasts who are infatuated with the technology or the math involved - Anti-Fed Libertarian types who want to use something that isn't controlled by a government - HFTs and speculators who either use it in part of their models or as a pump and dump vehicle Some people also use it to buy illegal stuff, but most of them have moved onto Monero as the primary pr…

So where do online drug dealers fit in the first 2 options?

Or Saudi / Chinese / Russian business types that are trying to extract wealth and avoid the blowback of a regime change?

They probably fit under #2 but I certainly wouldn't call a lot of those libertarian in ideology or even in practice, just opportunists.

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