Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#251

Post by strobot » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 6:57 AM UTC

the_watcher wrote: post #240

tim333 wrote: post #71

I'm not sure of the details of Spain's proposal but something needs to be done really to make taxation more fair. At the moment you get headlines like "Facebook paid just £28m tax after record £1.6bn revenues in UK" because they fiddle it with offshore tax havens while normal UK businesses have to pay more like 30% of their income in tax, not 1.7%.

> "Facebook paid just £28m tax after record £1.6bn revenues in UK" because they fiddle it with offshore tax havens while normal UK businesses have to pay more like 30% of their income in tax, not 1.7%. This conflates a few things. As I'm an American, I'm going to speak about US tax law, but concept should be applicable. No normal US business is paying taxes on their _revenues_, they're paying taxes on their earnings…

So if you made $1B in revenue selling $1 bills for $0.50, you'd have lost $500M

You'd have lost $1B. You'd have to sell 2B $1 bills @ $0.50 to make $1B revenue.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#252

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 8:02 AM UTC

ensignavenger wrote: post #231

mcv wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. You already deduct your costs in Spain from your profits there. If you don't do any business in Spain, why are you there? The idea here is to discourage corporations from putting basing in tax havens where they don't do any business. Taxes are paid where the profit is made.

Maybe I am in Spain because I am a Spanish citizen? Maybe I want to do R&D there because that is where the expertise is that I need? Maybe I thought my tech was going to be much more successful in Spain when I set it all up, but found out that the market wasn't there but was in the US?

I don't deny that my idea will result in some degree of protectionism. I think that's worth it in this case in order to prevent the flight of profit to tax havens, but there are absolutely edge cases where it forms some barrier to free trade.

On the other hand, having pure profit in a foreign market without any costs there, doesn't sound like a terribile position to be in. And maybe local businesses could use a bit of an edge compared to multinationals.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#253

Post by pasabagi » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 12:07 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #245

pasabagi wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a company that doesn't pay taxes actually useful? I would have thought it would out-compete companies that actually do pay taxes, so it would reduce revenue (presumably) without increasing job numbers.

It seems extremely strange to me to think that the primary purpose of a company would be to pay income taxes to a country (as seems to be implied by the question of whether they’re useful if they don’t). A company that doesn’t pay income taxes can still provide useful services to consumers, provide employment and purpose for workers, and those workers will pay income tax and employer will pay payroll taxes.

I guess I'm thinking that the primary purpose of a company is to make money - and the primary way in which this leads to social utility is through taxes.

Obviously, some companies provide useful and socially beneficial services, but many (most?) do not, or even provide socially destructive services (e.g. tobacco industry). Even in the case where they do provide social utility through their products, it strikes me that a company that doesn't pay income taxes is essentially taking away customers from one that does, and so, all of the usefulness is kind of amortized.

I guess the limitation here is that companies are not all fungible - if TSMC didn't want to pay taxes, you couldn't just replace them with another semiconductor company - they do sometimes bring unique utility to the table. But on balance, I think TSMC is a unusual case, and even there, the expertise and utility is almost entirely in the skilled workers and machinery, which would survive the company's dissolution (be picked up by competitors, etc).

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#254

Post by dangerface » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #135

dangerface wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk. The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. USA are not the good guys and Russia and China are not the bad guys they a…

At least Americans are vocal about it. Here in Europe we seem to have just given up on freedom and liberty. Just look at how many limitations freedom of expression seems to have in various European countries. Imagine being fined for insulting the president (happened in France). Furthermore, European countries fight wars just like the Americans do (Libya), we bully poor countries into trade deals as well (EPA and Keny…

I dunno if it's better to pretend. Europe used to rape and pillage Africa and America and pretended it was all to bring them freedom and liberty, eventually you'r reputation will proceed you.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#255

Post by dangerface » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

solarhoma wrote: post #81

ixtis7 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, perhaps. Russia is in the doldrums. The 'problem' with China is that it's an ethnostate, or wants to be. So in a practical sense most Westerners are better off fixing their allegiances to the US, for better or worse. At least then you can be part of the apparatus and not pre-emptively sidelined. I like some aspects of China vs. the US too, but China is for the Chinese , as they say.

Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else. We many times forget that not every country in the world acts this way. China being one of them.

Thats nonsense, even if you ignore the past problems we had with race and creed like the genocide of native Americans, enslavement of Africans.

Today Americas police and prison system has institutionalised racism. USA has camps they keep Mexicans in and separate their families.

China and Russia do these things too I know but that doesn't white wash what we do.

> Americans (and Europeans) are very used to the idea that no matter your race or creed you can be just as American as anyone else

As long as your race is white and your creed is western. I would say the same thing about china as long as you are Chinese.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#256

Post by Amezarak » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

sailfast wrote: post #84

dangerface wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk. The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. USA are not the good guys and Russia and China are not the bad guys they a…

I admit that some of what you say regarding wars and consideration of rights outside of US Soil are in decay of late, but please also inspect the extent to which the United States continues to protect the freedom and liberty of which you speak, generally, and some of the history involved in the current state of things. Our current president is not the United States, despite his tendency to speak as if he is. I would…

> I would argue he does not represent the main stream of American foreign policy and has continually fought against the majority opinion to protect institutions that preserve these freedoms and liberty (NATO / OTAN) and oppose actions that threaten said freedoms (annexation of crimea, etc).

The mainstream of American foreign policy is completely divorced from mainstream voters, which is one of the reasons for Trump's election: the foreign policy establishment has remained utterly impervious to American political sentiment for decades.

Most Americans are non-interventionist and veering on isolationist. They don't want to send foreign countries billions of dollars of foreign aid and they don't want endless US military expeditions. The US foreign policy establishment has ignored this at their own peril. They were able to neutralize Obama's foreign policy electoral platform; they haven't been so fortunate with Trump.

It's not very clear that American foreign policy has done anything to serve the interests of the average American in the past fifty years. It might have done great things for Europeans - I'm not a European, so I don't feel qualified to judge - but decades of American empire building have, if anything, hurt Americans, who have died in terrorist attacks caused by US foreign policy, been maimed in endless wars, and who have suffered from the economic globalization promoted by the foreign policy class. And frankly, I don't care about European interests or Crimean interests if they come at the expense of my interest.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#257

Post by dangerface » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #157

dangerface wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk. The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. USA are not the good guys and Russia and China are not the bad guys they a…

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. I'm sorry, but which of those do European nations not engage in as well?

Whataboutisms don't matter but if it makes you feel better:

> We wrote the game Americans are playing

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#258

Post by dangerface » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

president wrote: post #244

dangerface wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk. The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. USA are not the good guys and Russia and China are not the bad guys they a…

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. This is a very naive and unrealistic take. In a world where nations like Russia and China are willing to play dirty to encroach on western democracies, you cannot simply counter by playing fair. Where do you think…

If you play dirty with your friends you will lose them, this isn't naive its the cold reality of relationships, co-operation requires trust and thats a hard requirement.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#259

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #253

sokoloff wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems extremely strange to me to think that the primary purpose of a company would be to pay income taxes to a country (as seems to be implied by the question of whether they’re useful if they don’t). A company that doesn’t pay income taxes can still provide useful services to consumers, provide employment and purpose for workers, and those workers will pay income tax and employer will pay payroll taxes.

I guess I'm thinking that the primary purpose of a company is to make money - and the primary way in which this leads to social utility is through taxes. Obviously, some companies provide useful and socially beneficial services, but many (most?) do not, or even provide socially destructive services (e.g. tobacco industry). Even in the case where they do provide social utility through their products, it strikes me tha…

Competition tends to lower costs for consumers and profits for companies. Lowered profits results in lower corporate income tax.

Shall we restrict competition, in order to maximize corporate income taxes paid?

I’m not opposed to corporate income taxes or making an “is theft” argument, but I don’t see maximizing corporate income tax paid to be a first-principles good outcome to seek.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#260

Post by pasabagi » Fri, Dec 06, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #259

pasabagi wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm thinking that the primary purpose of a company is to make money - and the primary way in which this leads to social utility is through taxes. Obviously, some companies provide useful and socially beneficial services, but many (most?) do not, or even provide socially destructive services (e.g. tobacco industry). Even in the case where they do provide social utility through their products, it strikes me tha…

Competition tends to lower costs for consumers and profits for companies. Lowered profits results in lower corporate income tax. Shall we restrict competition, in order to maximize corporate income taxes paid? I’m not opposed to corporate income taxes or making an “is theft” argument, but I don’t see maximizing corporate income tax paid to be a first-principles good outcome to seek.

That's a good point. I was more thinking in response to the conventional idea that there is a 'race to the bottom' when it comes to corporate taxes - which rests on the idea that a corporation operating in a given country is inherently good, no matter whether they pay taxes or not.

In general, though, I would argue simply that regardless of the specific tax revenue figures, if a company doesn't pay taxes, they get free access to a lot of services other people have to pay for. That is in essence a subsidy. There's no compelling reason why the public should subsidize a private concern.

This goes double for a competitive marketplace, where companies that aren't subsidized in this way will suffer (and have suffered - try competing with amazon on price while paying taxes!)