Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#151

Post by m12k » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

HorstG wrote: post #5

nabla9 wrote: post #2

These are patchwork solutions. It would make more sense if EU countries would make laws that extend normal VAT to all internet business in EU and close all Irish loopholes. Google and others use Irish tax arrangement schemes like "The Double Irish" (base erosion and profit shifting), the Single Malt, and CAIA to avoid paying taxes. 12 EU states reject move to expose companies' tax avoidance https://www.theguardian.co…

The EU will never close tax loopholes since there will always be a veto from the likes of Ireland, Netherlands, Luxembourgh or UK.

Couldn't any member state just choose to tax daughter companies in their own country, whether or not those daughter companies were buying IP from the mother company in Ireland? Basically choose not to accept transfer pricing as actually reducing the profits in their country, so just tax them anyway. Is this actually against any EU charter? Because my impression was that EU basically does not have jurisdiction over how each country taxes companies within its borders, only that they have to do so uniformly (cf. the fine on Ireland and Apple where they were taxing Apple less than other companies in Ireland). As far as I can tell, what is needed to fix transfer pricing isn't a change of the tax law in tax havens, it's a change of the tax law in all the other countries that want to stop being exploited by them.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#152

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #131

nwellnhof wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that corporate taxes aren't strictly required. They are useful though, if you think about international capital markets. Without corporate taxes, foreign investors could extract all profits from a company, without paying any income tax in its country of residence. You are right about double taxation, but you can think of corporate tax as a part of income tax that is guaranteed to benefit the country where the…

I don't want my fire engines used to protect someone's property who isn't paying to support them.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but somebody owns that property and is paying income or capital gains on any realized profit.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#153

Post by seibelj » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:16 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #119

literallycancer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always look at it differently once it's their money being taken away. Anyone who thinks running a business is easy or more profitable than it should be should try to run one.

If running a business wasn't profitable no one would do it. Simple as that. Running a for-profit is not altruistic. It's not a service. You're not serving your community. It doesn't make you inherently good. People run businesses to make money. Full stop. Some nonsense comparison like "harder than it should be" doesn't mean anything, it's an opinion-based weasel phrase with no definition. Considering how dramatically…

I cannot disagree with this analysis any harder. It is so fully incorrect my eyes are bleeding. Although the entire paragraph was riddled with falsehoods and misconceptions, I will just say that the biggest investors and gainers from corporate success are pension funds and sovereign wealth that benefit average people through their retirements.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#154

Post by ixtis7 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

lexs wrote: post #137

ixtis7 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's silly to say that you don't benefit from government spending at all. On the other hand there is often a real sense of not getting what you put in. I imagine especially so on a forum like this where many are professionals of certain industries with relatively high pay. For example: public spending per person in the UK is Of course, my cost to society will rise as I get older, but on average I would e…

You might not have children but you do benefit from other people having children, just because you don't "take" as much as you're paying doesn't mean you don't indirectly benefit from the effects it has on society.

Sure, I agree, but it's hard to imagine the multiplier for the 'externalities' is 2x or greater. Singapore is not some horrific hellscape where I couldn't live as I do here. Nor is Hong Kong (present situation there not being due to lack of tax revenue). They're educated (perhaps even better than in the UK), healthcare would be accessible to me, infrastructure is good. Heck, Singapore even has a massive public housing umbrella that goes beyond anything in the UK. So where is all the money here going?

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#155

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #82

IMO the corporate tax rate should be zero, and then everyone would be on the same playing field. Right now the only companies that pay taxes are small ones without the resources and staff to get around it. With 0% corporate tax, all of these games and shenanigans would end. Also, corporate profits are double-taxed anyway, as taxes are paid once on profits then again as dividends / capital gains by the shareholders. T…

This seems like the obvious solution, make up the difference by taxing dividends and capital gains as if they were income. I'm pretty sure this is where we will end up anyway, there seems to be a race to the bottom.

It's much harder to move your family offshore to avoid tax than it is to move your profits offshore.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#156

Post by Mirioron » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #113

melenaboija wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you but, what about the USA not being aware of building a strong western economy? Economic politics from USA the last years has been quite protectionist and it seems in the coming future it will have to fight against countries with literally billions of people, so my feeling is western countries better stay together. Is not about fear but working class being tired, among other things, of big corporations…

Long term I don't think western countries have much of a chance :(. Due to how political systems work in China vs the West China can easily invest in large scale long term projects and it costs them a tiny fraction to develop new or upgrade old infrastructure. Given a large enough time span this will give China a huge advantage.

But historically, authoritarian systems aren't very stable. China might very well collapse if they make some bad decisions. I think an authoritarian system is more likely to make bad decisions, because people that decide things are further from the ground, they have less information.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#157

Post by stevehawk » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

dangerface wrote: post #60

vector_rotcev wrote: post #32

As a non-economist (amateur or professional), I get the impression that countries are losing their concern of the repercussions of displeasing the USA economically. Is this an accurate interpretation? If so, is it that they're less fearful of reprisals (tariffs?) or that they're less confident in the benefits of cooperation with the USA? Or a mix? Or something else?

Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk. The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. USA are not the good guys and Russia and China are not the bad guys they a…

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil.

I'm sorry, but which of those do European nations not engage in as well?

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#158

Post by tim333 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #99

seibelj wrote: post #82

IMO the corporate tax rate should be zero, and then everyone would be on the same playing field. Right now the only companies that pay taxes are small ones without the resources and staff to get around it. With 0% corporate tax, all of these games and shenanigans would end. Also, corporate profits are double-taxed anyway, as taxes are paid once on profits then again as dividends / capital gains by the shareholders. T…

The 'double-taxed' argument is so lame. Money circulates in a system and gets taxed basically infinitely. Worker gets paid and pays income taxes and retirement taxes. Worker spends their pay, and has to pay sales taxes. Business gets revenue from that purchase, and has to pays taxes. Business gives it to employee as salary. Taxes. Employee spends it. Taxes. Taxes. Taxes. There is no such thing as 'double-taxation'. I…

Double tax can be an issue but there are ways around it. In UK you used to get a tax credit on money paid out as dividends for the corporate tax already paid so if the company paid 20% tax on a profit, paid it as a dividend and your personal rate was 30% you'd just pay the extra 10%. Of course they've now complicated the whole thing up with extra rules and loopholes as politicians tend to do.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#159

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #93

seibelj wrote: post #82

IMO the corporate tax rate should be zero, and then everyone would be on the same playing field. Right now the only companies that pay taxes are small ones without the resources and staff to get around it. With 0% corporate tax, all of these games and shenanigans would end. Also, corporate profits are double-taxed anyway, as taxes are paid once on profits then again as dividends / capital gains by the shareholders. T…

Zero corporate tax would lead to a lot of avoidance and drops in government revenue. Say you are a consultant earning 100k a year who owns a house. You could just pay the 100k to your company and borrow against the house for living costs and pay zero tax for the time being.

You could do this now, leave your profits in the corporation and borrow against the balance. I don't think it would work though, compound interest accumulating on the loan would soon eat the gains.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#160

Post by sailfast » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #124

sailfast wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit that some of what you say regarding wars and consideration of rights outside of US Soil are in decay of late, but please also inspect the extent to which the United States continues to protect the freedom and liberty of which you speak, generally, and some of the history involved in the current state of things. Our current president is not the United States, despite his tendency to speak as if he is. I would…

>While that might undermine the argument about America being a protector of liberties, I think it would be a mistake to believe that there is no belief held at all, or that America does not continue to fight for these beliefs. What are these "liberties" and "beliefs" of which you speak? I'm an American and think the place is run by lunatics and mafiosos and has been for my entire life. It's more obvious now, and the…

It's hard to engage in alternate history, but NATO as an organization was formed to ensure that European democratic governments remained that way immediately following World War II, and until the fall of the Berlin wall. Keeping the Russians out, as you say - that was critical to preserving liberal government in Europe. Article V is not just talk, despite the fallout from the war in Afghanistan. Only using recent history as a reference is not a good guide here.

Can you tell me more about keeping the Germans down? I'm not sure I follow, but I'm probably misinterpreting what you mean by "down".