Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#111

Post by KAMSPioneer » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

dangerface wrote: post #60

vector_rotcev wrote: post #32

As a non-economist (amateur or professional), I get the impression that countries are losing their concern of the repercussions of displeasing the USA economically. Is this an accurate interpretation? If so, is it that they're less fearful of reprisals (tariffs?) or that they're less confident in the benefits of cooperation with the USA? Or a mix? Or something else?

Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk. The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil. USA are not the good guys and Russia and China are not the bad guys they a…

> Europeans like me like America because they are very vocal about freedom and liberty but we are waking up to the reality that it's all talk.

> The USA behaves like Russia and China, they spy on foreigners, influence their elections, start unjustified wars for oil and generally have a very low regard for freedom and liberty outside of their soil.

As a natural-born US citizen...Yeah I feel the same way. I feel like my government uses "freedom" the same way they use "think of the children" or "terrorism." To a lot of folks it seems like it's just a nebulous concept they can use to push a -- in my opinion unrelated -- political agenda. It's very sad to me.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#112

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

vector_rotcev wrote: post #32

As a non-economist (amateur or professional), I get the impression that countries are losing their concern of the repercussions of displeasing the USA economically. Is this an accurate interpretation? If so, is it that they're less fearful of reprisals (tariffs?) or that they're less confident in the benefits of cooperation with the USA? Or a mix? Or something else?

Not an economist either, but my impression is that the USA is no longer seen as a serious, reliable ally.

If you displease the USA economically you may get tariffs, but then, if you don't you may get tariffs too, because the President is tweeting in bad mood, or because America first, or whatever random reason. So why even bother?

Also note that Brexit has increased the cohesion of the rest of the EU. The UK government with their ludicrous attitude has managed to make all other EU countries agree, euroskeptic movements have been largely discredited by the utter chaos that is Brexit, and there's also the fact that the UK itself always acted as a roadblock vetoing integration policies, and a pro-USA influence in the EU. So lately I'm seeing more teamplay and mutual support between EU countries than ever, which makes them stronger.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#113

Post by qaq » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

melenaboija wrote: post #51

vector_rotcev wrote: post #32

As a non-economist (amateur or professional), I get the impression that countries are losing their concern of the repercussions of displeasing the USA economically. Is this an accurate interpretation? If so, is it that they're less fearful of reprisals (tariffs?) or that they're less confident in the benefits of cooperation with the USA? Or a mix? Or something else?

I agree with you but, what about the USA not being aware of building a strong western economy? Economic politics from USA the last years has been quite protectionist and it seems in the coming future it will have to fight against countries with literally billions of people, so my feeling is western countries better stay together. Is not about fear but working class being tired, among other things, of big corporations…

Long term I don't think western countries have much of a chance :(. Due to how political systems work in China vs the West China can easily invest in large scale long term projects and it costs them a tiny fraction to develop new or upgrade old infrastructure. Given a large enough time span this will give China a huge advantage.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#114

Post by literallycancer » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #91

ixtis7 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, perhaps. Russia is in the doldrums. The 'problem' with China is that it's an ethnostate, or wants to be. So in a practical sense most Westerners are better off fixing their allegiances to the US, for better or worse. At least then you can be part of the apparatus and not pre-emptively sidelined. I like some aspects of China vs. the US too, but China is for the Chinese , as they say.

I'm not sure I see this. They certainly are awful authoritarians and imperialists, but I haven't actually seen the ethnostate facism, or not in excess of what is in the Americas for example. I would say most westerners would be better off not fixing their alliances to any imperialist machine, Russian, Chineese, or American. Even the EU is suspect, but its moderating influence against the worst possible facism still s…

Ever heard of a place called Xinjiang? Where there is a million people in actual concentration camps, right now?

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#115

Post by adventured » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

gbuk2013 wrote: post #90

corebit wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please use the right words so that no one misunderstands the truth or thinks that you are lying. What the USA is doing is in no way isolationist. That is something completely different with no parallels or relations in any way. Using the word isolationist is misleading to the point of mistruth. It would be more accurate and representative of reality to say the USA appears to be acting more independently on the intern…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_(policy) as championed by the current US president. "America First refers to a foreign policy in the United States that generally emphasizes American nationalism, unilateralism, protectionism, and isolationism."

The US has 180 military bases around the world and isn't moving to close them by and large.

The US is the center of NATO and, despite Trump's occasional rhetoric, is not moving to leave the alliance.

The US is persistently using its naval projection capabilities to challenge China's territorial ambitions around Asia (including constantly sailing its navy through the illegally annexed South China Sea territory). Nobody else in the world can or will do that, including none of the fellow NATO members.

The US has a very large military presence in South Korea and Japan, positions both countries are openly thankful for and willing to pay more money to the US to keep (as North Korea continues threatening both countries and both are weary of China's military ambitions in the region). Currently the US has around 75,000 to 80,000 (!) military personnel stationed in South Korea and Japan combined.

The US is persistently deploying its military in the Middle East, including in Syria, Saudi Arabia and the waters near Iran.

The US is the extreme exact opposite of isolationist. Go by what the US does, not what Trump campaigns on to win an election (he also has built zero miles of a new wall on the Mexico border thus far and is deporting fewer illegal immigrants than Obama did, again despite his rhetoric to the contrary).

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#116

Post by sebsito » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

According to CEIC Spain had $232B of tax revenue in 2018. The article suggests it's going to bring 850M EUR = $943M to state's coffers so would represent around 0.4% of yearly tax revenue.

How come it's easier to impose a tax on particular area (which sounds unfair) and risk international relations with US instead of doing something else to gain just 0.4%. Either it's ideologic or they really can't find the money.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#117

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

mcrae wrote: post #62

frr149 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not the UK

Uh really? Check any list of the world's tax havens, and you will see the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, the Isle of Man, and Bermuda. The City of London has been a conduit through which wealth has been pilfered to these territories for a long time. They may shout from the rooftops about others' improprieties, but I seriously doubt their commitment to meaningfully overhaul their own house.

[deleted]

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#118

Post by ixtis7 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

kazagistar wrote: post #91

ixtis7 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China, perhaps. Russia is in the doldrums. The 'problem' with China is that it's an ethnostate, or wants to be. So in a practical sense most Westerners are better off fixing their allegiances to the US, for better or worse. At least then you can be part of the apparatus and not pre-emptively sidelined. I like some aspects of China vs. the US too, but China is for the Chinese , as they say.

I'm not sure I see this. They certainly are awful authoritarians and imperialists, but I haven't actually seen the ethnostate facism, or not in excess of what is in the Americas for example. I would say most westerners would be better off not fixing their alliances to any imperialist machine, Russian, Chineese, or American. Even the EU is suspect, but its moderating influence against the worst possible facism still s…

Having spent a decent amount of time in China, I think there are definitely a lot of falsehoods that are spread about it, but ethnostate-ish seems a pretty fair conclusion.

If you look at the way they're trying to integrate the outer provinces, and even just the way they view day-to-day and business interactions between Chinese and Westerners.

A Chinese billionaire in the US is no big deal, a US billionaire in China is unimaginable--they'd consider it out of order and I'd be surprised if it could even happen without them being cut down mid-journey. A contrived example maybe but success is reserved for the Han, not for outsiders.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#119

Post by criley2 » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

literallycancer wrote: post #107

criley2 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'double-taxed' argument is so lame. Money circulates in a system and gets taxed basically infinitely. Worker gets paid and pays income taxes and retirement taxes. Worker spends their pay, and has to pay sales taxes. Business gets revenue from that purchase, and has to pays taxes. Business gives it to employee as salary. Taxes. Employee spends it. Taxes. Taxes. Taxes. There is no such thing as 'double-taxation'. I…

People always look at it differently once it's their money being taken away. Anyone who thinks running a business is easy or more profitable than it should be should try to run one.

If running a business wasn't profitable no one would do it. Simple as that. Running a for-profit is not altruistic. It's not a service. You're not serving your community. It doesn't make you inherently good. People run businesses to make money. Full stop.

Some nonsense comparison like "harder than it should be" doesn't mean anything, it's an opinion-based weasel phrase with no definition.

Considering how dramatically wealth and income inequality has exploded over the past 2 generations in America, the only priciplied, data-based perspective is that corporations and the astronomically tiny number of people who control them have gotten fabulously more wealthy at the direct expense of workers who are working longer hours, more productively, doing more jobs, for less real money and wealth.

You can spin it however you want, but corporations and the capitalist class are more wealthy now that at any time in our history except the Gilded Era, and the working class is poorer now that they have been in many generations, and tax policy is really the only tool the people have to try and right this listing ship before another Wealth Destruction Event, another Great Reset.

Re: Spain planning on going ahead with ‘Google tax’ despite US tariff threats

#120

Post by sbacic » Thu, Dec 05, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

I have been seeing these headlines more and more lately and I have a nagging suspicion that somebody is pushing an agenda. What exactly that agenda is remains to be seen.

As for the news article you mentioned, it should be noted that the £28m is corporate tax, not _all_ the taxes. I'm reasonably sure that FAANG is not shirking the government on VAT or payroll taxes. As for why they pay so little corporate tax, I'd guess it's because they're not an EU company.

All of FAANG's cost centers are in the US so it makes sense that they are allowed to offset those costs with revenue from the rest of the world. Whether they are doing so fairly is another matter, but even then, I suspect the victim here is the US (since the money should be going there instead of some tax haven) and not individual EU member states.