We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#441

Post by klipt » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:23 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #324

TeMPOraL wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the point of criticizing the criticism of "it's a pipeline problem" is that, wherever you try to improve the pipeline, you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment. Working near the end of the pipe, you'll quickly hit diminishing returns. If the input at your segment is biased 4:1, then you can't improve past it. Sure, if your output is 8:1 then it's bad, but you won't g…

> wherever you try to improve the pipeline, you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment. You absolutely can. You can do so by not overindexing on traditional pipelines that have large amount of discrimination in them, such as top CS schools. IE, if you are more willing to interview people from less discriminatory sources, such as bootcamps, then you can get around other, wo…

By that logic shouldn't we also try to fix the overrepresentation of women in e.g. teaching and nursing by recruiting male teachers and nurses without degrees?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#442

Post by analyst74 » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:25 AM UTC

uwuhn wrote: post #222

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…

One thing I see few people discuss in terms of Asian and affirmative action, is that the immigration system overwhelmingly selects the wealthy, smart or other desirable qualities for all immigrants. And due to historical reasons like Chinese Exclusion Act, majority Asians in America had to go through those filters, or their parents had to.

Of course those people are going to succeed more than the average Americans who did not have to go through those filters, somehow being subject to harder selection became an unfair advantage?

You know the easiest way to bring down the average achievement of Asians? Invite a bunch of poor, uneducated, unmotivated Asians to become US citizens, soon those new arrivals will drag down the averages, making Asians into whichever socio-economic group you want.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#443

Post by Udik » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:34 AM UTC

16bytes wrote: post #140

TeMPOraL wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're misreporting the very link you quoted. Indeed, the Wikipedia description is pretty fair. I'll quote the relevant paragraph directly: "James Damore was spurred to write the memo when a Google diversity program he attended solicited feedback.[2] The memo was written on a flight to China.[12][13] Calling the culture at Google an "ideological echo chamber", the memo states that while discrimination exists, it is e…

Damore wasn't fired because he argued that the pipeline shortages largely explain gender disparity, he was fired because he made women felt excluded and othered. He wasn't fired because he argued against diversity, he was fired because he threatened inclusivity. To quote: "I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these diff…

> "to suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK"

That quote is plain stupid. I assume my colleagues to be all qualified for the job because they've been hired according to the same standards.

If my company only hires people that is more than 1.80 metres tall, I'm not diminishing the height of my female colleagues if I suggest that the reason there is a gender imbalance is that women are, on average, shorter.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#444

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:37 AM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #16

I don't think the point of criticizing "it's a pipeline problem" is that there isn't a pipeline problem, but that it's an easy out to avoid taking action at whatever stage of the 'pipeline' you happen to be working at. If, as an manager at a FAANG, you say "it's a pipeline problem" you're probably saying that there aren't enough candidates because not enough women graduate from ST programs. If you're a program develo…

Stages at the end of the pipeline obviously get much more starved than stages closer to the beginning. Computer scientists learn this in computer architecture 101.

The problem isn’t FAANGs, it’s the rest of the smaller companies that have gone from 20% female to 0% because they can’t compete with google’s salary package and supply really is limited at that stage in the pipe. If you work at a non-FAANG, the problem has gotten much worse than it was 10 years ago.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#445

Post by porknubbins » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

greggman2 wrote: post #381

hnick wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…

> Companies used to train internally Please no. Japan is that way. Japan pays programmers $20k to start, no better than working fast food. Their salaries go up to $60k at the top end at most big Japanese companies and they have the attitude that anyone over 35 is too old to code. I feel the fact they hire grads with zero experience is one of the reasons. Why pay someone $$$ if they can't actually do the job yet? Conv…

I question whether training internally for any role will ever make a big comeback given current labor markets, but even if it did in the US, the labor market here is nothing like in Japan for a whole bunch of reasons. I think programmer salaries are bad there because have you seen the software that comes out of corporate Japan? There may be smart programmers but its clear companies see software as an afterthought at best, not a competitive area like in the US. In some ways I kind of respect the basic approach of not leveraging data and AI to the max to be disruptive like the current US tech market, but I wouldn’t try to go be a programmer there.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#446

Post by whinythepooh » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:46 AM UTC

> STEM in early education being unfriendly to children from underrepresented backgrounds > hostile university culture in male-dominated CS programs > biased hiring practices > non-inclusive work environments

Is there any actual proof of any of this rather than some bogus numbers from noname Kapor Center who admit they are just evangelists?

https://www.kaporcenter.org/our-work/ > Our pioneering work ranges from education programs and community building to evangelism and investing.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#447

Post by caro_douglos » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

cforrester wrote: post #403

greggman2 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies used to train internally Please no. Japan is that way. Japan pays programmers $20k to start, no better than working fast food. Their salaries go up to $60k at the top end at most big Japanese companies and they have the attitude that anyone over 35 is too old to code. I feel the fact they hire grads with zero experience is one of the reasons. Why pay someone $$$ if they can't actually do the job yet? Conv…

I'm wondering if they don't have a different idea of training internally than you do... When I was younger, my mother worked as a freight forwarder. After she'd been there for awhile, the company paid to send her for training and certification to work with hazardous materials. If I recall correctly, she signed a contract agreeing to repay the costs of the courses if she left the company before a certain period of tim…

I’ve wanted to work at flex port for awhile and always wondered if they offered this...freight has so many things to learn in terms of law, economics, and supply chain....not to mention dealing with things at sea..

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#448

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 3:56 AM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #323

hellisothers wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of the article is that restricting your hiring pool to only CS graduates is a bad pattern and you should consider other qualities instead so saying only 18% of CS graduates are female misses the point. Having no CS degree myself and excelling in a top 10 company I agree with this sentiment, especially seeing the epidemic of “over leveling” the small pool of CS graduates occurring. I’d rather work with…

I’m a drop out too and have made my way to manager where I find myself training juniors many of which also do not have degrees. Unfortunately it is night and day between the ones who do have degrees and those that don’t. At this point I am now strongly recommending cs degrees to anyone seeking a career in programming because the theories do come up in any serious work, particularly full stack engineers who must have…

>>> theories do come up in any serious work

Counterpoint: the overwhelming majority of software companies out there do not work on problems and develop products that warrant deep computer science expertise.

I mean, if you're doing cutting edge and/or highly technical stuff, great, go nuts, recruit only those with CS degrees. But most software out there is your run-of-the-mill line of business software, mostly CRUD with a bit of specialized functionality. And the bar for working on that is way lower.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#449

Post by danans » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 4:02 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #422

danans wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example recursion, pointers, closures, and class hierarchies. > My suspicion is that one or more of these concepts is more of a barrier for women than men. Seems like quite a stretch, given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Add to that that the hard sciences like…

> given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance. Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the sa…

> Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance.

Understanding the function of pointers, classes, and most programming itself are also nothing like advanced mathematics. Even ML is largely stats and calculus in its technical aspects, not cutting edge math.

There is zero at all evidence to suggest that women are less capable of understanding the concepts behind programming.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#450

Post by perl4ever » Wed, Dec 04, 2019, 4:07 AM UTC

mlboss wrote: post #413

In the article they talk about more women in tech in India than in US. India is a highly sexist society having a male child is preferred over having a female child. Still more females are in CS than in a more egalitarian society like US. I think it is because there are less economic choices in India. So if you are going to college in India you will choose a subject that makes more economic sense. Even if that means s…

People often make reference to a time when programmers were predominantly women, say roughly the 50s-70s but I don't get the impression most younger people personally know someone whose career was largely during that era.

I do/did, and the reason she ended up as a programmer was because she wasn't considered for an engineering program (because they already had a woman studying engineering) and had to take a math scholarship instead.

If we want to continue to live in a world where women can become engineers, and managers, and CEOs, then some of the talented people who were forced to become programmers in earlier days are going to be diverted.