I'm going to preface this post by saying that I don't have a problem with most of my coworkers (male and female) being Asian. In fact, I prefer it. I'm not Asian, but the majority of my friends, classmates, and coworkers throughout my life have been, and that continues even now during my career in tech. Whenever I see anything related to affirmative action being discussed nowadays, I think that it's only a matter of…
> I think that it's only a matter of time until Asian women are treated the same way as Asian men. Once you've managed to close the gender gap in engineering, you have a new problem to deal with -- a lack of diversity among women engineers in regards to race and socio-economic class. The blanket catch-all term "Asian" is not doing this conversation any favors. You assert a monoculture, but Asia is a huge region with…
We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#402My alma mater Harvey Mudd College has had rough gender parity in Computer Science for several years now. It's a small school but other colleges could learn from their practices. https://www.inc.com/kimberly-weisul/how-harvey-mudd-college-...
They have parity because a woman who applies is 2.5x more likely to be admitted compared to man who applies [0]. I think this is probably reasonable, since more there are likely more qualified applicants than spots, so all of the admitted students will be qualified either way. However, I think it should still be mentioned as one of the key reasons why they have parity, rather than claiming it's simply due to changing…
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#403Earlier quoted context omitted.
I generally agree with you, but such smart and resourceful companies could do something about it. They are not powerless. Companies used to train internally - watch an older TV show (or even something like Better Call Saul) and see how many characters "worked their way up from the mail room". The death of company loyalty goes both ways but I'm sure it can be mended with some effort. Where I work one of the better pro…
> Companies used to train internally Please no. Japan is that way. Japan pays programmers $20k to start, no better than working fast food. Their salaries go up to $60k at the top end at most big Japanese companies and they have the attitude that anyone over 35 is too old to code. I feel the fact they hire grads with zero experience is one of the reasons. Why pay someone $$$ if they can't actually do the job yet? Conv…
When I was younger, my mother worked as a freight forwarder. After she'd been there for awhile, the company paid to send her for training and certification to work with hazardous materials. If I recall correctly, she signed a contract agreeing to repay the costs of the courses if she left the company before a certain period of time had passed.
Essentially, rather than hiring externally a freight forwarder who is already certified to handle dangerous goods, they identified their strongest existing employee without that certification and paid for them to learn what they needed for a more advanced position, with conditions to assure they recoup their investment. The way I read it, I thought the person you replied to was suggesting identifying existing employees with potential and paying to expand their skillsets for a different role, e.g. with bootcamps or MOOCs, not hiring fresh graduates for low pay.
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#404Earlier quoted context omitted.
The STEM gap is lower in countries with more discrimination against women. > Paradoxically, the sex differences in the magnitude of relative academic strengths and pursuit of STEM degrees rose with increases in national gender equality. The gap between boys’ science achievement and girls’ reading achievement relative to their mean academic performance was near universal. These sex differences in academic strengths an…
> The STEM gap is lower in countries with more discrimination against women. > A mediation analysis suggested that life-quality pressures in less gender-equal countries promote girls’ and women’s engagement with STEM subjects. In plain English, this is just saying that STEM is seen by women in those countries as a way to economic advancement, which is why they embrace it at higher rates. This is especially the case i…
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#405With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…
I doubt it is. You’re writing off all the self-taught coders. You’re also writing off all the non-coders.
Most companies seem to think they want a 10:1:1 ratio of engineers:designers:product managers, etc.
I think 3:3:3 would be better, and makes your issue go away.
But we have this worship of “engineering” as some sort of magical thing that happens in a vacuum and requires no cross-discipline input.
Meanwhile every tech company I’ve ever worked for is pathologically rewriting the same code over and over, bashing their heads against the same tech debt over and over, and regularly wasting millions of dollars Building The Wrong Thing.
Heck we should probably have 10:1 masseuses and 10:1 psychotherapists on staff. Productivity would strictly increase.
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#406> And even if we could meaningfully increase the number of women enrolling in CS programs overall, top companies have historically tended to favor candidates from elite universities (based on some targeted LinkedIn Recruiter searches, 60% of software engineers at FAAMNG hold a degree from a top 20 school).
That is a hiring bias offering very little to qualify a candidate's potential longevity in the field or their potential innovation performance. If employers really wanted to fix this sex parity problem (without sacrificing applicant quality) they could, but they would have to be willing to abandon certain premises they hold dear about hiring, candidate sourcing, and qualification criteria.
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One example of a naive selective bias is the notion of the standard 4-year computer science degree as the path to excellent in corporate software. The 4-year degree exists to take a person off the street make them a credible hire as an entry level developer in the most generic way possible. That's it. You don't need any formal education to be an incredible developer might result in a far wider distribution of skills from self-education.
If your goal in life is to do something other than write C++ or Java, the most commonly taught languages in most 4-year degree programs, you need to find experience or training elsewhere. The inherent bias is that a person with a degree from an excellent school is well prepared for any aspect of software development, because its all just software. This is why so many entry-level front-end developers want their front-end technology to behave like Java or impose frameworks to make it so.
Its also why many software developers are over confident in their understanding of security when in reality they are grossly ignorant of it with a severely misplaced understanding of what security actually is. As an example many software developers might believe security is limited to something like intrusion prevention. Information security is actually: confidentiality, integrity, and availability (CIA). If you cannot keep your application from crashing or cannot keep it online that is classified as a priority security failure without regard for intrusion.
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Another example, the one that convinced me to delete my Reddit account after being flamed multiple times by impassioned echo chambers, is the notion that Web Assembly will free the front-end from JavaScript. The most interesting thing about that conversation is that people most supportive of the idea that Web Assembly will replace JavaScript is that the DOM is a fantastic technology that will be the key to ultimate salvation without any understanding of or experience with the DOM.
As an aside most JavaScript developers dreadfully HATE the DOM and also have a poor understanding of its mechanics. Even still injecting the page's DOM directly into a Web Assembly instance was seen as ultimate salvation to replace JavaScript despite all evidence to the contrary merely because some developers hate JavaScript more than many JavaScript developers hate the DOM. This was 3 years ago, and this fantasy still has not come to pass, because its based on a dillusion of wishful thinking opposed to an investigation of technologies available or any consideration of data.
There is a technology that has made great strides in, at least superficially, replacing JavaScript: TypeScript. This is the opposite line of thinking of abandoning JavaScript for some drop in alternative. Instead TypeScript is a superset that requires embracing JavaScript.
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The pitfalls of selective bias are personality failures rather than anything related to education or intelligence. Bias is formed either out of intellectual laziness or out of reinforcing some deeply held personal belief, but both are an absence of objectivity. When a bias is formed to reinforce some personal opinion it is done so emotionally, often non-cognitively, and often for a perceived security motive. Because a bias can be deeply rooted, non-cognitive, emotionally-based, and defensively focused in can result in really bad decisions resulting in subjective positioning to maintain a poorly-formed belief at hand (digging in). This is a cultural problem and education alone will not fix it.
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#407With such politically charged issues, it's always a problem of people wanting to believe something is possible (and mandatory to pursue) banging their heads against what is true and actually possible. If the percentage of female computer science graduates (as a strong proxy for the available candidate population) is 18% (Google for the facts and stats), how is every company to hit an idealistic goal of 50% representa…
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you might be reading into what I wrote a bit. This is just how I feel...not how I WANT to feel. Obviously, these are biases and anxieties that exist in my own mixed-race low-income immigrant brain that i wish weren't there. As another latino founder told me..."walk into a VC pitch meeting with the confidence of a tall white man." Like I don't hate caucasians but sometimes can't help but notice these differenc…
As a tall while Caucasian I think you need you have a problem with the environment, not a racial one. I live in Eastern Europe and we don't really know what racism is because we have no history of problems in the past; I had direct reports that were Latino and Latina, Europeans (Caucasians), black (African): they were friends more than subordinates. In Bucharest my South African colleague, the Brazilian one and the C…
Just look at Roma.
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
Author here. Yeah, I went back and forth on the intro a bunch and couldn't find a clearer way to not dismiss systemic issues while calling out the fact that we're not being fair to the people on the ground by bundling everything up as bias.
I don't think in general people are bundling everything up as bias; many people are bundling up everything as sexism, but that is a superset of bias. A silly example: if your job description said "We only hire men" (and this weren't illegal), then even if your entire interview process were unbiased, you're probably going to end up with fewer men. There is an argument that individually and as a whole, the tech communi…
I consider sexism to be a subset of bias, so this is an interesting take. I do not think your example shows something as unbiased, because I consider the statement "We only hire men" to be biased.
Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring
#410Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not true. Harvey Mudd made changes to their CS program to remove bias and now more than half of its computer science majors are women. There is some very insidious bias in the pipeline that isn't explained away with "but different interests". https://qz.com/730290/harvey-mudd-college-took-on-gender-bia...
Basically everyone at Harvey Mudd is in STEM -- the article says this. Their results are not really useful in the discussion, as their female student population is already heavily self-selected in favor of the hard sciences.