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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#11

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

I can't believe you are openly racist enough to claim that interviews are unfair because you have to be interviewed by white people (who you would have to work with every day if you were hired). If I said that I was uncomfortable being interviewed by latinos what do you think the reaction would be?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fellow Latin American, I find "LatinX" offensive. English already has a gender neutral adjective to refer to us, Latin, and therefore Latin American. LatinX means you've internalized the colonialization of white "liberals" [0] who would refer to us as Latinos or Latinas while speaking English to show off their poor Spanish and therefore pretend to be sophisticated and woke. [0] I don't consider liberal bad or go…

That only just occurred to me as I was reading OP's comment. The construction of "LatinX" has always bothered me for how contrived and nonstandard it is, but I think what's really been getting under my skin is that it's entirely superfluous. The meaning is entirely legitimate but since the word for it already exists I can't see any purpose for such a weird new one other than signaling woke group affiliation.

I read a recent poll that 90% of Latin Americans don't like the term.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#13
post #7

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

Have you tried therapy? The fact you are not able to concentrate and perform when "'Zuck' white guy personality type" (whatever "Zuck" type means) is present, suggests a deeper personal issues and biases that you need to work on and resolve. If there are no personal issues then your comment, honestly, comes across as a bit racist.

'Stereotype threat' anxiety is a well-known and well-documented phenomenon at this point. https://www.apa.org/research/action/stereotype

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#14
post #3

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

So I'm ready for the downvotes, but its worth it. I don't think it is generally good to look for divisions and more ways to separate from the whole. I don't know if that is because you're out somewhere in super woke SF or similar but you've already used terms like "LatinX" and "person of color" like someone who is already woke but maybe stop for a sec? Why don't you see yourself as a person who likes CS/tech and like…

Basic Principles of Respectful Discussion:

1) Assume good faith until you have reason to assume otherwise. Try your best to NOT make assumptions about people's experiences or situations.

2) If someone, particularly a marginalized person, brings up an experience they have had but you have not had, your first impulse should be to hear them out, NOT to invalidate them.

3) Likewise, just because you personally may not have seen or experienced something in this group/in real life, it does not mean that said thing does not happen.

4) Above all, just be good to each other. It can often be difficult to discern tone and intent over the internet, but try not to pounce on each other too quickly.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#15
at my workplace we try very hard to hire women programmers and we are at about 10% - 15% which is still quite low but better than other companies around us.

At the same time I noticed that the majority of engineering managers, product owners and agile coaches in our company are women. Some of these women were programmers at some point in their career.

I'm not deducing anything from this (especially since it’s a single datapoint) but it sure is interesting.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#16
I don't think the point of criticizing "it's a pipeline problem" is that there isn't a pipeline problem, but that it's an easy out to avoid taking action at whatever stage of the 'pipeline' you happen to be working at.

If, as an manager at a FAANG, you say "it's a pipeline problem" you're probably saying that there aren't enough candidates because not enough women graduate from ST programs. If you're a program development person at a university you're probably saying not enough enroll. If you say it as a high school guidance counsellor you probably are saying there's not enough push for girls to do well in science and math classes and apply that to their higher education even if there is.

The point is that whatever stage of the pipeline you're at, if you want things to improve, you have to work with the tools at your disposal. You can't wait for universities to both increase enrollment and increase graduation (two separate problems as well). As this post points out you need to look for other ways to find talent that bypass that problem and recognize that the path to your job for a minority in your field will probably look drastically different to yours. It's just never going to be enough to wave your hand at the problem and blame the stage before you.

The post does get at this for sure, so I'm not really criticizing it for its conclusion, but the first couple of paragraphs build a strawman that I think is very unhelpful to understanding the nature of the problem.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#17
My alma mater Harvey Mudd College has had rough gender parity in Computer Science for several years now. It's a small school but other colleges could learn from their practices.

https://www.inc.com/kimberly-weisul/how-harvey-mudd-college-...

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#18
post #4

Key point: > there really aren’t enough women to meet demand… if we keep hiring the way we’re hiring. Namely, if we keep over-indexing on CS degrees from top schools, and even if we remove unconscious bias from the process entirely, we will not get to gender parity. And yes, there is a way to surface strong candidates without relying on proxies like college degree. I am all in favour of reducing the industry’s relian…

> I am all in favour of reducing the industry’s reliance on fancy name schools for hiring.

Soon after the industry seriously stops doing this, the fancy name schools will quickly get female-dominated, and whatever the industry starts using as a signal of candidate quality that hadn't been male-dominated before, will start to be.

When proposing new policies, always solve for equilibrium, don't ignore second order effects, and never assume the world is steady state system.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#19
post #7

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

Have you tried therapy? The fact you are not able to concentrate and perform when "'Zuck' white guy personality type" (whatever "Zuck" type means) is present, suggests a deeper personal issues and biases that you need to work on and resolve. If there are no personal issues then your comment, honestly, comes across as a bit racist.

I agree with the sentiment that maybe therapy would be helpful for the OC, but speaking as a woman, I have a similar problem. Growing up my dad used my thoughts and emotions as weapons against me so "showing my thought process" to strangers that are men in a high stakes environment like an interview is incredibly crippling. I tend to disassociate once I'm uncomfortable and I'm not able to recover in the span of an interview session. I do attend therapy myself, but it's a very slow process to heal from years of emotional abuse.

I recognize my own experience is more on the extreme end, but SWE and related interviews could be more mindful of different life experiences in general.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#20
I'll preface this with the usual "my views are my own" but I do think that diversity in the workplace is a very deep and interesting problem and that we do a major disservice to it by creating ridiculous metrics.

I think the most damning metric I see constantly touted is percentage gender; "We aim to have 50% women in the workplace" is a prime example of this. If this is by sexual assignment then even if the value is reached the intent will not be (one could be a female by sex but a male by gender and thus from a diversity standpoint is largely contributing as a male). If this is by gender assignment not only is the metric focused on a fluid concept but it's also not a binary - in order to reach 50% women we'd only have 50% for the remaining non-women, which represents a broad range of gender expression and is not exclusively male.

I do respect that many companies (not just in tech) see diversity as an issue and are trying to do something about it. However, I do hope that they spend more time investigating the full range of the issue and begin by making small attempts at approaching the problem space before declaring metrics as objectives.

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