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We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

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Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#121

Post by DoreenMichele »

rofo1 wrote: post #33

I don't understand why people deliberately hire people of certain group. Be it women, or black, or whatever. Why? Why can't you just hire the right person for the job? To me, this is just as bad as actively discriminating against certain groups of people. Why must everyone be absolutely and uniformly represented? It just doesn't make sense, that's not how reality works. It will never be so, and all you end up doing i…

It's an awkward, overly simplified attempt to correct systemic errors.

There is reason to believe that women, people of color, etc are unfairly kept out and it does great harm to their lives (and has other undesirable consequences). We mostly don't know how to remedy that, so we come up with some cludgy thing like "Let's set a goal of hiring more women" instead of looking for a more elegant solution.

Unsurprisingly, it tends to not work all that well. Then you get articles like this one trying to explain the failure, in essence.

Edit: The Rooney Rule is the only elegant solution I've really seen for systemic bias in hiring. The NFL requires teams to interview people of color who apply for certain positions because they determined that the bias in their pipeline was pre-interview stage. It did wonders to improve the numbers without setting a quota.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#122

Post by HeroOfAges »

majos wrote: post #29
nradov wrote: post #17

My alma mater Harvey Mudd College has had rough gender parity in Computer Science for several years now. It's a small school but other colleges could learn from their practices. https://www.inc.com/kimberly-weisul/how-harvey-mudd-college-...

For anyone who didn't read the linked article (it's short), it suggests that a key element is careful design of intro courses. Students with computer science experience get a more advanced course that is explicitly designed not to make them more competitive in second-year courses (instead, it starts on material that will re-appear in third-year courses). Students with no computer science experience get their own intr…

How does this level the playing field? Why would this not reduce the overall rate of learning for everyone to suit the needs of the slowest students?

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#123

Post by DoreenMichele »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #120
DoreenMichele wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept that men and women may have different interests is considered sexist I would posit that men and women have different realities, thus different needs. This shapes interests. It's not wholly unassailable, but needs to be approached differently than goals like "achieve x percentage of women in tech" are typically approached.

I'd agree with your observation about different realities, and I think it's woefully underappreciated. I think it only truly clicked with me once I entered a stable, long-term relationship with my now wife - which made me immersed in the daily minutiae of a woman's life, the stories, the perspectives, the concerns, the emotions. It's something that's hard to learn from just brief, casual interactions, no matter how o…

"Easy money" is always a honey pot for all kinds of drama, including SJWs who want a cut, can't really admit it as blunt avarice and need something prettier to dress it up in.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#124

Post by dang »

rinchik wrote: post #7
sbilstein wrote: post #2

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

Have you tried therapy? The fact you are not able to concentrate and perform when "'Zuck' white guy personality type" (whatever "Zuck" type means) is present, suggests a deeper personal issues and biases that you need to work on and resolve. If there are no personal issues then your comment, honestly, comes across as a bit racist.

Please keep internet psychiatric diagnosis off HN.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#125

Post by btilly »

wrs wrote: post #101
btilly wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I did read the Gender Differences section of that article. You will note that I stated what research shows about population differences and did not wade into the more controversial question about why those differences exist. That said, I have found that on controversial subjects, people grab every sliver of support for their own ideas, and ignore data that might contradict it. The more heated the debate, the har…

It could be explained by lots of things — my point was that population differences in abilities that can be learned will obviously result if the population doesn’t have a uniform opportunity to practice those abilities uniformly, so it’s hard to avoid explaining the lack of learning by the lack of abilities without becoming circular. It’s biological fact that brains are extremely plastic, and I’m sure we all know (or…

Question. What evidence would it take to convince you that there are real biological differences?

In the hypothetical, yes. Absolutely. Social differences can explain a lot of what look like biological differences.

The opposite is also true. Biology may cause large differences.

These two explanations are also not necessarily in conflict. Biological factors may work through social dynamics. For example hormones can change our actions which affects our immediate social environment at impressionable ages.

That said, evidence suggests that testosterone levels during puberty affects our spatial reasoning abilities for the rest of our lives. Given the very large difference in testosterone levels between men and women, this suggests a biological explanation of the measured gender difference.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#126

Post by TeMPOraL »

ajross wrote: post #78
wayoutthere wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is leaving unstated what we all know to be true: most of these jobs aren't really that hard. You don't really need the people with pedigreed CS backgrounds, but it's easier than actually figuring out how to screen candidates. The "pipeline problem" is the pipeline itself. So you have to go around the pipeline by avoiding the formal education system, which is where the bias is observed.

That's not quite right either, because if these were truly easy jobs someone would have figured that out and won by hiring cheap developers with non-traditional backgrounds. In fact engineering jobs are hard, and there is a big spread in candidate quality. The issue is that heretofore the best proxy for candidate quality is educational background, hence the pipeline problem. And you definitely fix that by going aroun…

> if these were truly easy jobs someone would have figured that out and won by hiring cheap developers with non-traditional backgrounds

Note that the same argument works as evidence against recruiting bias and pay disparity. Discriminating against people or paying them less due to factors unrelated to job performance is leaving money on the table. Such discrimination persisting would imply that the market is very inefficient in this aspect.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#127

Post by TurkishPoptart »

sbilstein wrote: post #45
TurkishPoptart wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this idea, but what makes it different from a phone call? I avoid video chat whenever I can. I don't want to see myself in the screen. When I can just speak to an interviewer on the phone, I do better.

We do a shared code editor and VoIP. It really helps to not be able to see any facial expressions IMO. I've done like a hundred or so of these interviews.

Awesome! I hope more companies begin to do the same!

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#128

Post by rb808 »

Honestly for young children I wouldn't want any of the girls to become software engineers. Most Software Engineers including myself are friendly but also grumpy, nerdy and annoying, with poor communication skills and an unhealthy lifestyle. For some reason for men its OK because all they do is work, but for women I'd rather my daughters have more human contact and nicer environment - esp one without developers in it. Yeah its sexist when I write it down but that's how I'm sure a lot of parents feel, which is one reason why there aren't so many women at the entry to the pipeline.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#129

Post by dang »

rinchik wrote: post #56
sbilstein wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your cultural beliefs and intuitions ARE personal issues and biases. They are challenging to overcome. Racist people don't get to being racist by reading a blog post or two; they develop and internalize it over time like any cultural trait. Same goes for these anxieties people of color feel. It's ignorant to not realize that all of these things are mental. Duh, therapy helps. Trust me, every single person of color wh…

I’m not sure I follow, I don’t think that if a white guy is present during your interview, he is automatically racist? What I got from your post is that you are having problems during interviews because you are not comfortable with white people conducting your interviews. It’s sounds like you are automatically assume that white interviewers are racist? You are broadly generalizing people who happened to be white whic…

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

Everyone on HN deserves that, but considering how even-keeled and respectful sbilstein's posts have been in this thread, on so sensitive a topic, I'd suggest 10x.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#130

Post by dang »

travisoneill1 wrote: post #11
sbilstein wrote: post #2

I think it's pretty bold to post something like this. As a person of color, I absolutely observe bias in hiring processes and recruiting...however as someone who majored in CS it's undeniable that we have far less women and minorities going through these programs. After I graduated, my university managed to get the number closer to 60/40 of men vs. women but when I graduated there was just one woman in our graduating…

I can't believe you are openly racist enough to claim that interviews are unfair because you have to be interviewed by white people (who you would have to work with every day if you were hired). If I said that I was uncomfortable being interviewed by latinos what do you think the reaction would be?

You've broken the site guidelines badly here. Would you please review them and stick to the spirit of this site when posting to HN? Note this in particular:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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