We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring • Hacker News Board

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#91

Post by brightball » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #81

brightball wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the best developers I know have no degree at all. I know one guy who did a boot camp 2-3 years ago and since then has self taught himself so much that he's one of the most knowledgeable people I've been around. He was recently told in an interview that he otherwise passed with flying colors that, "someone with a boot camp education couldn't be seriously considered." It's mind blowing to me that anyone in c…

> "someone with a boot camp education couldn't be seriously considered." Ok, wait a minute - they brought him in for a full interview, knowing that he didn’t have a degree, made him jump through all the hoops and then told him that he was never actually under consideration at all? That’s douche behavior no matter how you feel about college degrees.

Yes. It was as if they brought him in to fill an interview requirement and didn't actually think he would qualify.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#92

Post by tasogare » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

rofo1 wrote: post #65

tasogare wrote: post #52

Collective madness is largely reached at this point: the writer is complaining about a totally self-made issue. If I was trying to recruit men for nurse jobs, or people of color in Korea I would ran in a similar pipeline problem. The real issue is that "diversity" had became a metrics to reach for its own sake by companies instead of simply recruiting people that fit the job. Moreover, you can’t complain about so-cal…

> The real issue is that "diversity" had became a metrics to reach for its own sake by companies instead of simply recruiting people that fit the job. Completely insane. I can't understand who came up with and spread it around with a straight face. "hey we better hire predetermined % of otherwise we are bigots" Truly remarkable how insane it is. I haven't seen a single case where the people that ought to be employed…

> Can it be coincidence that nobody, ever, ever raised an issue that not enough white Christian men were employed?

Multiple reasons:

- in European countries (USA is particular because of imported slaves) the white unemployment used to be the general unemployment rate until 40 years ago. Tons of white men are seeking jobs, at this moment. So yes, the issue exists.

- some minorities are in the business of complaining, other aren’t. In my country, which has a significant East-Asian population, none of them plays the victim cards. It seems going to school make wonders, who would have guess?

- then there is the natural difference between sexes that drive different interests, and the average IQ difference between races. Of course someone with a 80 IQ will have hard time competing on the education and job market against people with 100+. That’s why Jews and East-Asian are over represented in Ivy league.

So, there are few reasons that explain the state of things very well. But of course, I guess it’s more interesting to not look at basic science and dive instead into conspiracy theories implicating "the Patriarchy" and super evil White men.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#93

Post by brightball » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

nick_ wrote: post #75

brightball wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the best developers I know have no degree at all. I know one guy who did a boot camp 2-3 years ago and since then has self taught himself so much that he's one of the most knowledgeable people I've been around. He was recently told in an interview that he otherwise passed with flying colors that, "someone with a boot camp education couldn't be seriously considered." It's mind blowing to me that anyone in c…

I definitely believe you and I think plenty of good devs have just a boot camp education, but I've also had a conversation with someone who came out of a dev boot camp and was very upset that they weren't treated like any other dev in the job market. Meanwhile, it was quite obvious they had no foundational experience/knowledge in terms of technical problem solving skills.

No argument there. It's not a wholesale endorsement of boot camps or anything...more that you need to judge the person and not the piece of paper.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#94

Post by sbilstein » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

mjfisher wrote: post #88

sbilstein wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be reading into what I wrote a bit. This is just how I feel...not how I WANT to feel. Obviously, these are biases and anxieties that exist in my own mixed-race low-income immigrant brain that i wish weren't there. As another latino founder told me..."walk into a VC pitch meeting with the confidence of a tall white man." Like I don't hate caucasians but sometimes can't help but notice these differenc…

I don't know if this will be of any use to you. If you're pitching to VCs, you're already operating way above my level. I also don't know if it's different over here. I live and work in the UK and I'm white. I genuinely don't think I've worked with anyone in the tech industry who cares what race or background their co-workers have. There's definitely an underrepresentation problem (most grievously with female enginee…

The best athletes in the world still get nervous before games. Same with musicians. I don’t feel meta bad about getting nervous. It just sucks to feel nervous!

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#95

Post by ajross » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:17 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #61

TeMPOraL wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the point of criticizing the criticism of "it's a pipeline problem" is that, wherever you try to improve the pipeline, you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment. Working near the end of the pipe, you'll quickly hit diminishing returns. If the input at your segment is biased 4:1, then you can't improve past it. Sure, if your output is 8:1 then it's bad, but you won't g…

> you cannot expect to make things better than they are at the input of your pipe segment People have been fired from Google for suggesting exactly that.

This isn't a fair characterization.

Damore's memo (which I assume is what you're talking about) absolutely did not attribute Google's lack of women candidates to a lack of graduates in the pipeline. It went with a straight on (and largely unsourced) "women are biologically different" argument. Wikipedia's page on the controversy is relatively good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Ch...

And even that didn't get him fired per se. He got fired once it went viral and embarrassed his employer.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#96

Post by leeny » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #16

I don't think the point of criticizing "it's a pipeline problem" is that there isn't a pipeline problem, but that it's an easy out to avoid taking action at whatever stage of the 'pipeline' you happen to be working at. If, as an manager at a FAANG, you say "it's a pipeline problem" you're probably saying that there aren't enough candidates because not enough women graduate from ST programs. If you're a program develo…

Author here. Yeah, I went back and forth on the intro a bunch and couldn't find a clearer way to not dismiss systemic issues while calling out the fact that we're not being fair to the people on the ground by bundling everything up as bias.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#97

Post by commandlinefan » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

Well, the gist of this is: there aren’t enough women in “tech”, so different standards should be applied for women until there are. Setting aside all the other problems I have with this: law and medicine have much stricter barriers for entry. There are no practicing doctors or lawyers without advanced degrees, but there are plenty of women in both professions. So even if you accept the premise, it’s still pretty clear you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#98

Post by sbilstein » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

ergfdgs wrote: post #82

sbilstein wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too hate the term LatinX but it's become the preferred term around so many I know that I'd rather just conform than argue about it. Just cause I used it doesn't mean I endorse it.

I upvoted your reply to my "Impose yourself" comment. Specifically the "Choose my battles". I get it. I live in the mid-West. Most people haven't heard the neologism. My parents (well educated, sophisticated people) certainly hadn't. SV is different. But culturally where I live doesn't matter. We accept the culture. If SV adopts LatinX, then all Latin Americans will have to adopt it. Imagine being referred to be a no…

lol I just moved to NYC and you bet I’m not gonna say LatinX in a fucking bodega. When in Rome.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#99

Post by commandlinefan » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #91

commandlinefan wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "someone with a boot camp education couldn't be seriously considered." Ok, wait a minute - they brought him in for a full interview, knowing that he didn’t have a degree, made him jump through all the hoops and then told him that he was never actually under consideration at all? That’s douche behavior no matter how you feel about college degrees.

Yes. It was as if they brought him in to fill an interview requirement and didn't actually think he would qualify.

Well, that’s inexcusable behavior BUT - we can safely assume they ended up hiring somebody else, who had a degree. In other words, somebody who was as qualified as he was, but who also had a degree. In other other words, somebody more (maybe only slightly more, but still more) qualified. Requiring some sort of a degree is still reasonable, up until the point where a position actually goes unfilled due to it.

Re: We ran the numbers, and there really is a pipeline problem in engineering hiring

#100

Post by xyzzyz » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #13

rinchik wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried therapy? The fact you are not able to concentrate and perform when "'Zuck' white guy personality type" (whatever "Zuck" type means) is present, suggests a deeper personal issues and biases that you need to work on and resolve. If there are no personal issues then your comment, honestly, comes across as a bit racist.

'Stereotype threat' anxiety is a well-known and well-documented phenomenon at this point. https://www.apa.org/research/action/stereotype

It is very well documented. In fact, it is the shining example of the replication crisis in psychology.

Here's from Michael Inzlicht, one of the people who started stereotype threat research in the first place:

> I edited an entire book on stereotype threat, I have signed my name to an amicus brief to the Supreme Court of the United States citing stereotype threat, yet now I am not as certain as I once was about the robustness of the effect. I feel like a traitor for having just written that; like, I’ve disrespected my parents, a no no according to Commandment number 5. But, a meta-analysis published just last year suggests that stereotype threat, at least for some populations and under some conditions, might not be so robust after all. P-curving some of the original papers is also not comforting. Now, stereotype threat is a politically charged topic and I really really want it to be real. I think a lot more pain-staking work needs to be done before I stop believing (and rumor has it that another RRR of stereotype threat is in the works), but I would be lying if I said that doubts have not crept in. ...

http://michaelinzlicht.com/getting-better/2016/2/29/reckonin...

It only got worse since 2016.