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Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

zdnet.com

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Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#81

Post by bpfrh »

FpUser wrote: post #69
orev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me” I try to be objective as much as possible, but having witnessed almost all of Microsoft’s behavior through history, we have been fooled 100s if not 1000s of times. How many times do you let the fox back into the hen house? The only thing I think when I read recent “Microsoft is so great” comments is that the person is either too young to have any real knowledge…

Name me any other big company with great ethics and all nice and fluffy. For example look at how Google had started and what it has become. Not really trying to protect Microsoft here but them companies are all the same, just different degree of "success".

I think that is exactly the point.

The argument is that if a language is developed/mainly contributed by a single company there is an inherent risk of that language being suddenly discountinued or lacking features that are needed by other people/companies.

At least that's how I understand the critics against microsoft in this case.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#82

Post by edgyquant »

sansnomme wrote: post #4

Oh no, I bet it's gonna be a C# flavored Rust. None of Rust's terse syntax and functional influence. It's going to be full-blown Java-style OOP with plenty of Wnd handles to be thrown around. Yikes, I certainly hope I am not right.

this is what I'm hoping for. Introducing memory safety is enough I dislike Rust because of how different it decided it needed to be compared to most other systems languages.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#83

Post by astrodust »

danso wrote: post #80
astrodust wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two words: Steve Ballmer.

The former CEO who retired five years ago?

Yes. That's why people are still super nervous whenever Microsoft dares to embrace something new. Past experience.

I'm not saying they're like that today, but that's why some people get all on-edge when Microsoft does things like this.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#84

Post by smadurange »

orev wrote: post #49
JNRowe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a big proponent of F# it annoys me how much one still needs to fight "but M$" arguments if I point out a thing that F# does well. The same thing seems to happen when discussing Haskell with people who know just enough to recognise the influence MSR employees have on it. It almost makes me wonder how they/we can work around that sentiment now. Either hope for generational shift to eventually kill it, or perhaps hav…

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me” I try to be objective as much as possible, but having witnessed almost all of Microsoft’s behavior through history, we have been fooled 100s if not 1000s of times. How many times do you let the fox back into the hen house? The only thing I think when I read recent “Microsoft is so great” comments is that the person is either too young to have any real knowledge…

Or you are just so bogged down in history that you have a difficulty changing your opinion. Few decades is a long time in our line of work.

Microsoft didn't change out of charity or ethics. They were forced by the direction industry was heading as a whole. Cloud, opensource software, Google, AWS started making Microsoft irrelevant unless they changed.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#85

Post by bluejekyll »

zozbot234 wrote: post #25
saagarjha wrote: post #8

Video where this was introduced, which has more details: https://vimeo.com/376180843 Slides: https://www.slideshare.net/KTNUK/digital-security-by-design-...

The slides don't really add much detail. They're just a light introduction to the sort of region-based memory management that was already being used by Cyclone, well before the Rust project was even a thing.

> already being used by Cyclone, well before the Rust project was even a thing.

Let’s be a little more accurate here. Rust is an actively developed language, Cyclone was a research project that I don’t believe has received an update since 2006.

Rust also is explicit that it borrowed its lifetime concept from Cyclone. Rust is in use and gaining popularity in a way that Cyclone didn’t.

This is a bit like the debate between Apple and Xerox in terms of the beginnings of the desktop/mouse/GUI environment. Apple was the first to make it popular, xerox park invented it. Rust has a similar relationship with Cyclone.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#86

Post by shmerl »

jandrese wrote: post #11
dlbucci wrote: post #5

What does "Rust-based" even mean? Inspired by Rust? Does it transpile to Rust or something? Very confusing phrasing to me...

Historically it means they would start with Rust and then add in just enough Windows proprietary stuff to make it not run on any other platform.

Given MS history, EEE was the first thing I thought about too. Take something, extend, then claim it's superior and everyone should stop using the original.

But if it simply means they are making a new language using lessons from Rust - then why not.

Though I didn't quite get what problem they found with using the idea of scope based lifetimes per object, that they needed to redefine it in context of groups.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#87

Post by freehunter »

deogeo wrote: post #58
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big companies are not autonomous and do not make their own decisions, individual people working at those companies do. I think it’s safe to say that anyone working there today has nothing to do with the time periods you’re referencing, so I don’t know why you would consider decades old issues to be relevant today.

As part of the BSA, they still lobby for software patents today . The OOXML Office format they used to continue pushing Office lock-in is very recent: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_OOXML They tried their best to keep the list of their Android patents secret, so that they could not be worked around, and they abused their patent on the FAT filesystem as recently as 2012: https://www.howtogeek.com/1837…

Serious question: are there any major closed-source software companies (so like, not Red Hat or Canonical, etc) who don't lobby for or use software patents?

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#88

Post by Ar-Curunir »

orev wrote: post #49
JNRowe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a big proponent of F# it annoys me how much one still needs to fight "but M$" arguments if I point out a thing that F# does well. The same thing seems to happen when discussing Haskell with people who know just enough to recognise the influence MSR employees have on it. It almost makes me wonder how they/we can work around that sentiment now. Either hope for generational shift to eventually kill it, or perhaps hav…

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me” I try to be objective as much as possible, but having witnessed almost all of Microsoft’s behavior through history, we have been fooled 100s if not 1000s of times. How many times do you let the fox back into the hen house? The only thing I think when I read recent “Microsoft is so great” comments is that the person is either too young to have any real knowledge…

This is from MSR, which mostly functions independently of MS the company.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#89

Post by ta0185762954 »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #74
zelly wrote: post #72

This is great news. Microsoft is adopting/forking Rust. That means Rust will be supported for all eternity.

Or at least Microsoft Visual R++

Exactly, for anyone that recalls Visual J++, this should send a shiver down the spine. No, they haven't changed much, yes they do better PR now.

Re: Microsoft is creating a new Rust-based programming language for secure coding

#90

Post by xvilka »

EEE strikes again? Why not just use and contribute into the Rust itself? Why creating one more copy? They could have extended C2Rust[1][2] to support C++[3] and C# to ease their migration instead.

[1] https://c2rust.com

[2] https://github.com/immunant/c2rust

[3] https://github.com/immunant/c2rust/issues/162

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