Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism • Hacker News Board

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#91

Post by stebann » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 4:53 AM UTC

brokenkebab wrote: post #26

DoctorNick wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's fun about this piece is that it puts into perspective how absurd, unworkable, and thoroughly ripped off of Star Trek the Chilean control room was, which is thoroughly entertaining. Pretty presumptuous, considering how it was never really put into practice before Allende was murdered and Pinochet's brutal regime was installed by the CIA. Reminds me of a quote: “The boys of Capital, they also chortle in their m…

The quote conveniently omits the fact that socialist regimes, and movements never were like a hippie commune trying to just "rise on its own merits". They were at least as much as aggressive trying to subvert their capitalist adversaries. And in this war (both overt, and covert) socialist side often had advantages stemming from centralization, mobilization, and relative closeness of its leader states, i.e. one couldn…

Allende's Chile wasn't USSR. It was a democratic government. And USA HELPED too kill that democracy that was the promise of Latin America...

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#92

Post by stebann » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 4:56 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #59

eirini1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your "revolution" is based on stealing from the Spanish-blooded landowners to feed Amerindian losers who breed like rabbits, you will get opposition. this is some real mask-off shit.

For real. Keep this kind of stuff in mind when watching what's going on in Chile and Bolivia today. Or anytime someone from Miami says that every Cuban they know hates Castro (or now Diez-Canel) and we should help get rid of him.

They try, but REVOLUTION is though and lives!

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#93

Post by stebann » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 5:01 AM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #67

eirini1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unprecedented prosperity for like, 20 people. The millions of other people definitely haven't enjoyed anything but immense poverty and misery since the Pinochet coup the implementation of the neoliberal wet dream.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you haven't traveled around Latin America much and have never been to Chile, and seen the dramatic difference?

Yes, it's so good that Chileans come to the universities in my country, Argentina, and many work here. And we're happy to help them, because Neoliberalism took their opportunities and their future.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#94

Post by stebann » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 5:02 AM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #67

eirini1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unprecedented prosperity for like, 20 people. The millions of other people definitely haven't enjoyed anything but immense poverty and misery since the Pinochet coup the implementation of the neoliberal wet dream.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you haven't traveled around Latin America much and have never been to Chile, and seen the dramatic difference?

What's the dramatic difference? It's like USA, worst quality of life, inequality and a bunch of idiots whom for decades stole from workers and avoided taxes, and try to sell that "model" to the rest of the world.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#95

Post by stebann » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #40

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not everyone . Some people were allowed to live so that an unprecedented era of prosperity unmatched by any other country in Latin America could be ushered in.

... In which most people didn’t reap benefits, as the current protests show.

Almost two months of protests. Now protests in Colombia. Protests in Bolivia against the regime that USA and Israel put there.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#96

Post by jancsika » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 6:17 AM UTC

DoctorNick wrote: post #83

jancsika wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easter egg inside that metaphor: One day some Spanish anarchists built a functioning helicopter. Upon seeing it fly, the Wright brothers immediately teamed up with the auto industry and shot up everyone in the testing facility. Then the Wright brothers intoned: Not invented here. That was found crossed out in one of William Blum's manuscripts with these words written in red ink: "too inside baseball."

Oh William Blum, still pining for Catalonia...

I mention it on HN because it's a lot like that time the bearded guy and the clean shaven guy convinced their camps that their descriptions of the scientific method were different enough to warrant distinct sets of conferences. But at least in that case the result was only monumentally boring and not deadly.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#97

Post by tsimionescu » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 6:22 AM UTC

chr1 wrote: post #89

tsimionescu wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my understanding, the only obligation would be that, IF you "employed" someone, they should have the same voting power as everyone else, since they should always be empowered to have some say on their own work. But I don't know of any socialist principle that would force any particular company to "employ"/associate with any particular person.

Interesting, i have never seen this definition of socialism where it is simply about the way companies are governed and companies themselves are free to compete with each other. I expected a system that would try to equalise everyone in the whole country instead of simply everyone working for a given company, so it would need some way to redistribute goods instead of simply giving equal voting rights to all employees…

The oldest idea of socialism is 'worker control of the means of production', which sounds a bit antiquated, but refers exactly to this: that the people doing the work should get to decide what work is being done.

There is one major difference from capitalism though, that would have broad repercussions: workers do not get paid a wage, they directly get the profits of the company (not in equal amounts, but by some democratically voted scheme specific to each company). This would lead to vastly more equality in society. It world probably also have a huge impact on international economic relations.

There are many forms of socialism, but what in describing is one of the oldest, and it is the one preferred by Noam Chomsky, the most influential leftist thinker in the world.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#98

Post by chr1 » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #97

chr1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, i have never seen this definition of socialism where it is simply about the way companies are governed and companies themselves are free to compete with each other. I expected a system that would try to equalise everyone in the whole country instead of simply everyone working for a given company, so it would need some way to redistribute goods instead of simply giving equal voting rights to all employees…

The oldest idea of socialism is 'worker control of the means of production', which sounds a bit antiquated, but refers exactly to this: that the people doing the work should get to decide what work is being done. There is one major difference from capitalism though, that would have broad repercussions: workers do not get paid a wage, they directly get the profits of the company (not in equal amounts, but by some demo…

Which types of contracts between people would we have to ban to achieve this version of socialism? If someone was allowed to form a company by himself, and sell his work to another company, or to forgo his vote in exchange for a fixed pay, we'd be back to the current state.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#99

Post by Nasrudith » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #97

chr1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, i have never seen this definition of socialism where it is simply about the way companies are governed and companies themselves are free to compete with each other. I expected a system that would try to equalise everyone in the whole country instead of simply everyone working for a given company, so it would need some way to redistribute goods instead of simply giving equal voting rights to all employees…

The oldest idea of socialism is 'worker control of the means of production', which sounds a bit antiquated, but refers exactly to this: that the people doing the work should get to decide what work is being done. There is one major difference from capitalism though, that would have broad repercussions: workers do not get paid a wage, they directly get the profits of the company (not in equal amounts, but by some demo…

That brings to mind literal antiquity with Roman soldiers beinf required to supply their own gear. It was decentralizing in power but to call it equality is a bit misleading given it effectively created a caste barrier to be a soldier by an added constraint of "fit enough to fight AND afford the kit". The alternative was government supplied gear.

Of course the downside of the alternative was that it allowed for a centralizing of power in generals. Proto-generalismo problems ensue.

Which I believe highlights the irony of "equality" and "accessibility" being in opposition. Effectively the fetishized "means of production tied to labor" means by implication everyone is required to own all of their capital for production. Otherwise they cannot start. There are more barriers to entry and the lowest are even more disenfranchised. That is before the organizational logistical problems of supply chains and industrialization let alone what comes after it. It brings to mind the old form letter joke about "your proposed solution for spam won't work".

I don't oppose trying to find a better system, and laud attempts but that doesn't seem workable.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#100

Post by Nasrudith » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #8

yowlingcat wrote: post #2

A sad trod through a common delusion of grandeur I see on the internet these days. If the Chilean control room was really ripped off of Star Trek, that's a little absurd and hilarious but moreover sad. On the flip side, I'm not sure how much I agree with its premise and conclusion. Sure, it's easy to mock technocommunism historically if you ignore the elephant in the room that is China. While not in the same category…

That China experienced a revanchist revolution in the 1980s and moved to an authoritarian Capitalist model? While I know we’re treading into “No True Scotsman” territory here, I don’t think it’s controversial (not the least among historians) to say from the Deng era on, the Chinese communist project was supplanted and replaced with a State Capitalist mode.

How is that Revanchism? Tibet was kind of conquered 30 yeara ago and the claim over Tibet was a preexisting condition. They already were reclaiming all historical territory.