Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism • Hacker News Board

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#21

Post by kspacewalk2 » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:34 PM UTC

s_kilk wrote: post #7

pram wrote: post #4

I always thought ERP is basically applied “cybernetics” Also a big problem with a system like this, in the 20th century socialist states, is that the input data would have been complete bullshit. That was one of the issues the soviet gosplan ran up against during the final days. Everyone was lying about their production numbers so the data was useless, whether in a fancy computer system or not.

That's certainly true of the Soviet case (the fear instilled by the Stalin years left everyone lying constantly just to avoid the bullet), but Chile was very different. The whole project was to build a genuinely inclusive and worker-led democracy. And they got pretty far with it too, considering they were under economic blockade. We don't get to find out how the story would have ended because the Yanks decided to do…

Well, not everyone. Some people were allowed to live so that an unprecedented era of prosperity unmatched by any other country in Latin America could be ushered in.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#22

Post by monocasa » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:41 PM UTC

NaggingGranpa wrote: post #20

DoctorNick wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's fun about this piece is that it puts into perspective how absurd, unworkable, and thoroughly ripped off of Star Trek the Chilean control room was, which is thoroughly entertaining. Pretty presumptuous, considering how it was never really put into practice before Allende was murdered and Pinochet's brutal regime was installed by the CIA. Reminds me of a quote: “The boys of Capital, they also chortle in their m…

You give the CIA too much credit. Much of the armed forces and the civilian populace hated Allende and his policies. Pinochet was an opportunist who jumped on the bandwagon when it was already in motion. The CIA had it easy. In South Vietnam, under more adverse conditions, the CIA failed miserably.

Nixon was extremely concerned about Chile, had constant updates from, and made it a high level goal of his presidency to overthrow Allende. The trashman strike was for sure CIA organized for instance.

And it's a lot easier for your propaganda to take when your troops aren't committing massacres in the country like in Vietnam.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#23

Post by coldtea » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:42 PM UTC

>Mind you the Chilean government was being starved of dollars at the time as a form of colonial pressure, just as the Venezuelan government is now in 2019. The results were hilarious.

Yes, a coup, a dictatorship and tens of thousands tortured and executed, haha.

The whole TFA screams of facile dismissal and cheap comic shots (people smoked on airplanes at the times and well into the 80s even in the US, so there is nothing to strike as funny about having ashtrays on the chairs in everybody that wasn't born yesterday and only remembers a world after the smoking ban/decline).

Yes, it was just a fancy control room inspired by sci-fi and wanting to look futuristic, no, they didn't think they were running the Enterprise.

And their failures were more largely attributed to foreign influence, blatant sabotage and sponsored subversion, and diplomatic pressure, than their economics approach or the design of the room. They might have failed economically too, but not for being communist. They were just more socialist than it was acceptable / allowed for a Banana Republic in Latin America at the time (or now). Similar measures in sovereign countries in Europe wouldn't bat an eye...

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#24

Post by DoctorNick » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

NaggingGranpa wrote: post #20

DoctorNick wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's fun about this piece is that it puts into perspective how absurd, unworkable, and thoroughly ripped off of Star Trek the Chilean control room was, which is thoroughly entertaining. Pretty presumptuous, considering how it was never really put into practice before Allende was murdered and Pinochet's brutal regime was installed by the CIA. Reminds me of a quote: “The boys of Capital, they also chortle in their m…

You give the CIA too much credit. Much of the armed forces and the civilian populace hated Allende and his policies. Pinochet was an opportunist who jumped on the bandwagon when it was already in motion. The CIA had it easy. In South Vietnam, under more adverse conditions, the CIA failed miserably.

>Much of the armed forces and the civilian populace hated Allende and his policies.

No, actually, he was quite popular[1]:

>Between 1970 and 1973, the Unidad Popular (Popular Unity)—the coalition of parties backing Allende—actually increased its vote, a growing popularity which in itself casts some doubt on the widely spread tales of economic disaster wrought by the government. In the last significant election, a fierce electoral battle for Congress in March 1973, the Unidad Popular increased its share of the vote to 44 percent. The rest of the vote was split among the several other parties, which at that time functioned freely and openly in the Chilean tradition. The 800,000 who greeted the President on September 4 constituted nearly one-tenth of the national population, the largest political rally ever held in Chile.

It was the upper classes that hated him, the people who had been getting fat off the people for the past several decades and stood the most to lose from his presidency.

[1]: https://www.thenation.com/article/true-verdict-allende/

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#25

Post by monocasa » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #21

s_kilk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly true of the Soviet case (the fear instilled by the Stalin years left everyone lying constantly just to avoid the bullet), but Chile was very different. The whole project was to build a genuinely inclusive and worker-led democracy. And they got pretty far with it too, considering they were under economic blockade. We don't get to find out how the story would have ended because the Yanks decided to do…

Well, not everyone . Some people were allowed to live so that an unprecedented era of prosperity unmatched by any other country in Latin America could be ushered in.

The "Miracle of Chile" is pretty greatly overstated. Their GDP per capita didn't beat Latin american average until 1990, they've never beat unemplyment rates for Latin America as a whole, etc. They were also subject to much greater recessions relatively when recessions happened across Latin America.

IMO so much of the positives can be attributed to the CIA stopping their policy of "make their economy scream".

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#26

Post by brokenkebab » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

DoctorNick wrote: post #10

yowlingcat wrote: post #2

A sad trod through a common delusion of grandeur I see on the internet these days. If the Chilean control room was really ripped off of Star Trek, that's a little absurd and hilarious but moreover sad. On the flip side, I'm not sure how much I agree with its premise and conclusion. Sure, it's easy to mock technocommunism historically if you ignore the elephant in the room that is China. While not in the same category…

>What's fun about this piece is that it puts into perspective how absurd, unworkable, and thoroughly ripped off of Star Trek the Chilean control room was, which is thoroughly entertaining. Pretty presumptuous, considering how it was never really put into practice before Allende was murdered and Pinochet's brutal regime was installed by the CIA. Reminds me of a quote: “The boys of Capital, they also chortle in their m…

The quote conveniently omits the fact that socialist regimes, and movements never were like a hippie commune trying to just "rise on its own merits". They were at least as much as aggressive trying to subvert their capitalist adversaries. And in this war (both overt, and covert) socialist side often had advantages stemming from centralization, mobilization, and relative closeness of its leader states, i.e. one couldn't protest Soviet foreign military operations the way it was possible in the US, UK, or Germany, or France, and spying/sabotaging was harder to do in USSR, then in any opposing country. In the end, ability to innovate, and provide people with food, and comforts decided the outcome. And it tells us something.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#27

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

DoctorNick wrote: post #24

NaggingGranpa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You give the CIA too much credit. Much of the armed forces and the civilian populace hated Allende and his policies. Pinochet was an opportunist who jumped on the bandwagon when it was already in motion. The CIA had it easy. In South Vietnam, under more adverse conditions, the CIA failed miserably.

>Much of the armed forces and the civilian populace hated Allende and his policies. No, actually, he was quite popular[1]: >Between 1970 and 1973, the Unidad Popular (Popular Unity)—the coalition of parties backing Allende—actually increased its vote, a growing popularity which in itself casts some doubt on the widely spread tales of economic disaster wrought by the government. In the last significant election, a fie…

[deleted]

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#28

Post by monocasa » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

FWIW, the Nobel prize in economics isn't a real Nobel per se. The Nobel family was very against it's inclusion in the 60s (it was added by the Swedish Central Bank as a celebration), and is awarded mostly by members of the Mont Pelerin Society for whoever circle jerks neoliberal ideas the best.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#29

Post by ccvannorman » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #19

It's funny in a way, that a modern person believes that through technology we can very well reach consciousness with computers, go to Mars, design our genes, achieve immortality, colonize the universe, find the "god's particle", and so on, but successfully modelling an economy is impossible...

I don't think that's the precise way people feel. Socialism/etc HAS "failed", and capitalism HAS "succeeded", for certain definitions of failed and succeeded. What people assume is that socialism today would fail (and I agree). But if presented with new facts, e.g. here is a robot that can produce food, gather solar power, and manufacture goods for you, and there is one per household, suddenly the literal definition of socialism can become much more pallatable.

Re: Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism

#30

Post by NaggingGranpa » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #22

NaggingGranpa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You give the CIA too much credit. Much of the armed forces and the civilian populace hated Allende and his policies. Pinochet was an opportunist who jumped on the bandwagon when it was already in motion. The CIA had it easy. In South Vietnam, under more adverse conditions, the CIA failed miserably.

Nixon was extremely concerned about Chile, had constant updates from, and made it a high level goal of his presidency to overthrow Allende. The trashman strike was for sure CIA organized for instance. And it's a lot easier for your propaganda to take when your troops aren't committing massacres in the country like in Vietnam.

Nixon also made Vietnamization a high level goal of his presidency. How did that work out?

Propaganda? Latin America is based on caste. If your "revolution" is based on stealing from the Spanish-blooded landowners to feed Amerindian losers who breed like rabbits, you will get opposition. Not much propaganda needed. And when the landowners send their sons to the army officer corps, you will have opposition with actual teeth.