Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips • Hacker News Board

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#121

Post by perl4ever » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 3:08 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #114

phkahler wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it sure looks like my country is trying to make things harder for China, and is paying the price of making things harder for workers in my own country. Not sure if you've noticed, but manufacturing is starting to come back in the US. Industrial automation and skilled trades jobs are starting to be a thing again. These are solid middle class jobs that often dont require a degree. Its coming at the expense of some p…

>The US lost a LOT of capability over the last 20 years citation needed... My understanding was that US manufacturing output has been steadily growing (even if employment has been falling) for all of that time.

I think I have read that that manufacturing employment has been falling in China and the world as a whole, too.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#122

Post by perl4ever » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 3:10 AM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #105

onepointsixC wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really free when China had much greater tariffs on US goods than Chinese goods had come into the US? Is it really free when Chinese entities get to enjoy massive subsidies to dump products while foreign companies face nonmarket barriers? Fundamentally it's time to wake to the fact that the CCP views the very existence of Liberal Democracies as a threat to itself [1]. It will work to undermind or extinguish then…

Document 9 is for domestic policy, CPC recognizing Western Liberal values is a threat to Chinese system does not mean CPC is attempting to undermine those values elsewhere. Unlike USSR, CPC hasn't been exporting or competing on ideology. As for the free trade question, China has a higher mean tariff rate ~2% more, which is comparable to other developing countries. But viewing "free trade" in tariff lens doesn't prese…

What's the point of comparing the number of disputes without at least normalizing for the size of the economy and the length of time being discussed? It looks unserious.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#123

Post by perl4ever » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 3:18 AM UTC

takeda wrote: post #13

rootsudo wrote: post #4

I checked out a Huawei store - they're the same asthetic as an apple store with a ton more useful tech then an ipod, macbook and imac. The phones were impressive and very affordable. We're talking $200-300 for 6gb ram devices, 128gb storage, etc. Google, Apple are right to be worried.

Google and Apple are just milking it. Smart phones were introduced a decade ago. Flagship phones costed then around $500, now we got to the point that they costing $1,000+ like if mass producing wouldn't cut the cost down. On top of that making a battery be non removable and constantly over-volting the batteries to reduce their life. Ultimately phones become useless after 2 years, unless you replace batteries yoursel…

A few years ago, I got annoyed with a Google phone (Nexus something I think) that broke, given how expensive it was, and replaced it with a Motorola Android phone that was well under $100. I didn't really sacrifice the basic necessities - sure, the screen was small and side by side with a high end phone obviously less bright and lower resolution, but providing you didn't care about processor intensive apps/games, it served the same purpose.

Edit: Of course, I am assuming there wasn't a substantial subsidy from somewhere, but from my point of view, it didn't have a contract attached.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#124

Post by perl4ever » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 3:21 AM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #84

QuarterReptile wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their computers are also matched with Microsoft's for the tallest screen (3:2) you can get, while also being pretty high quality. If you don't want 16:9, the only other options I'm aware of are the newest Dell XPS convertible and Apple (both 16:10). I would get a Huawei Matebook except that it would really rock the boat at my work, and that's not something I want to do.

I would get a Huawei Matebook except that it would really rock the boat at my work, and that's not something I want to do. Is this really a thing in American (I'm assuming here) workplaces? Are all Huawei products persona non grata or just some ? I thought it was just the P30 Pro phone and some enterprise stuff that were explicitly barred. Could you elaborate on where things stand as of this writing, and if they are…

I have no idea, but everywhere I've been in the US, both public and private sector, seems to have Dell products, very occasionally HP. I'd expect them to be made in China too, I dunno.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#125

Post by esqqfskaw » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 3:32 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #36

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #8

This is really impressive for Huawei. I do not mean to say that the trade war between China and the US is the same as the Cold War from before, but I have a fun tidbit to share. One of the more interesting theories I heard for why the US won the Cold War is because Russia struggled to develop IC technology. The Russians were masters of espionage, and I would even give them the edge in mechanical engineering, but the…

>And obviously it's not so great for the US. There's a lot of confusion, I think, about how you "win" a trade war; as far as I can tell, autarchy is pretty bad for all involved; trade wars seem like a thing where everyone loses and the 'win' comes from winding down the trade war and trading again.

This seems more like an issue with people being out of touch with the theoretical side of war. War, as a concept, has been treated as simply being another means of compelling cooperation since as far back as Sun Tzu. Although western war philosophy has been equally influenced by more recent figures like Carl Von Clausewitz. The US military even acknowledges similar thinking through modern concepts like the DIME model that are oriented towards forming a theory of war that acknowledges itself as part of a larger political environment. From this perspective, where war is just a tool for compelling cooperation, a trade war is simply a trade and economy based conflict which seeks to compel cooperation towards some particular goal like not putting people in concentration camps or buying more USA made rice.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#126

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #104

takeda wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google and Apple are just milking it. Smart phones were introduced a decade ago. Flagship phones costed then around $500, now we got to the point that they costing $1,000+ like if mass producing wouldn't cut the cost down. On top of that making a battery be non removable and constantly over-volting the batteries to reduce their life. Ultimately phones become useless after 2 years, unless you replace batteries yoursel…

>Smart phones were introduced a decade ago. Flagship phones costed then around $500, now we got to the point that they costing $1,000+ like if mass producing wouldn't cut the cost down. If making smartphones is really as easy as you make it out to be, and smartphone prices are rising, then why isn't that being captured in the global profit share? Considering that Androids are vastly more popular than iOS phones, ther…

[deleted]

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#127

Post by Animats » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 4:05 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #36

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #8

This is really impressive for Huawei. I do not mean to say that the trade war between China and the US is the same as the Cold War from before, but I have a fun tidbit to share. One of the more interesting theories I heard for why the US won the Cold War is because Russia struggled to develop IC technology. The Russians were masters of espionage, and I would even give them the edge in mechanical engineering, but the…

>And obviously it's not so great for the US. There's a lot of confusion, I think, about how you "win" a trade war; as far as I can tell, autarchy is pretty bad for all involved; trade wars seem like a thing where everyone loses and the 'win' comes from winding down the trade war and trading again.

You mean autarky, full economic self-sufficiency. China is certainly big enough to operate as an autarky. The US used to, up to about 1980 or so.

This is a current goal of the government of China. It's called "Made in China 2025", and was announced in 2015.. "The goals of Made in China 2025 include increasing the Chinese-domestic content of core materials to 40 percent by 2020 and 70 percent by 2025.[5] The plan focuses on high-tech fields including the pharmaceutical industry, automotive industry, aerospace industry, semiconductors, IT and robotics etc, which are presently the purview of foreign companies." There's been some backing off on this from the government of China for PR purposes, but the big goals seem to be on track. Key items include a leading position in semiconductors and in aircraft. Semiconductors seem to be coming along well. In aircraft, the COMAC 929 is a medium-sized airliner with five prototypes flying. The engine is still imported, but an engine to replace it has been developed to the prototype level.

China already has the world's largest auto industry, so that's covered. Also the largest robot industry. Don't know about pharma.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#128

Post by Gibbon1 » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 4:39 AM UTC

lsc wrote: post #114

phkahler wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it sure looks like my country is trying to make things harder for China, and is paying the price of making things harder for workers in my own country. Not sure if you've noticed, but manufacturing is starting to come back in the US. Industrial automation and skilled trades jobs are starting to be a thing again. These are solid middle class jobs that often dont require a degree. Its coming at the expense of some p…

>The US lost a LOT of capability over the last 20 years citation needed... My understanding was that US manufacturing output has been steadily growing (even if employment has been falling) for all of that time.

That's a common belief and it's wrong.

https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1250...

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#129

Post by fspeech » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 5:31 AM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #120

monocasa wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You always get screwed in niche B2B on a single seat license. There's no way the chip manufacturers are actually spending anywhere near that much. And they really aren't that complex. China has more than enough capability to reproduce them. I guess I'm not sure how to prove a negative here. What do you think is so special about EDA software that isn't fairly easy replicable? Other than the fab design rules, which if…

And I’m not sure why you still think that EDA tools are so simple. I guess we’re at an impasse, then. Going back to my first comment: I would be extremely impressed if China is able to build a home-grown, state-of-the-art EDA toolchain. I also still think that the US should work to protect its existing advantage in this area.

You seem to be convinced that software vendors could unilaterally control where and how their software is used. If they have this kind of power why do they need copyright protection in the first place? Why do we need a trade war as the US supply a majority of software in use, some of which far more critical than EDA software.

Re: Huawei Manages to Make Smartphones Without American Chips

#130

Post by dirtyid » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 5:32 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #122

dirtyid wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Document 9 is for domestic policy, CPC recognizing Western Liberal values is a threat to Chinese system does not mean CPC is attempting to undermine those values elsewhere. Unlike USSR, CPC hasn't been exporting or competing on ideology. As for the free trade question, China has a higher mean tariff rate ~2% more, which is comparable to other developing countries. But viewing "free trade" in tariff lens doesn't prese…

What's the point of comparing the number of disputes without at least normalizing for the size of the economy and the length of time being discussed? It looks unserious.

Because multiple indicators conform to reveal the flimsy narrative behind China being some supreme violator of free trade. Controlling for time, China should have received 112 claims since it's accession, almost 3x more. You can examine the cases more closely here and judge magnitude for yourself, but the basic pattern is that the US is the biggest exploiter of free trade and the institution that supports it, by magnitudes, including among developed G20 nations. Not to mention their current efforts to block WTO judges reappointment, an actual attack on values via institutional sabotage.

https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_maps_e.ht...

That's not to say Chinese markets aren't protectionist, every country is, with the harshest measures reserved for strategically important industries, typically with extremely well funded and loud lobbying groups. A handful of large companies complain about tech transfer, but relative to all sectors their concerns are marginal - latest American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai poll of US companies on top priorities for current trade talks and 0.4% of respondents thinks force tech transfer is an important issue. But those 0.4% of companies encompass strategic industries with disproportionate geopolitical ramifications, so their concerns are magnified for IR theater to distort the narrative. There's a reason the pivot to Asia and the narrative against Chinese development started when Made in China 2025 was announced to supplant western dominance in key high tech fields. It's unserious to rationalize US actions against China to preserving free trade - it's more geopolitical maneuvering to protect US industries, as others have mentioned it's the same story behind Japan with Plaza Accord that also targeted West Germany.