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Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

nature.com

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Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#71

Post by ben_w »

username90 wrote: post #21
mark_l_watson wrote: post #6

When I worked in Central Illinois recently, the home my wife and I rented bordered a field where young cows were raised. The small cows seemed to play some sort of game, running around each other like run after the leader. We thought they were playing. Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environment…

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see wh…

None of the logic in that argument would change if I replaced “beef” with “long pork”.

Personally, I don’t claim to know how much “personhood”[0] a cow has. It’s possible they don’t count and we shouldn’t care. But it’s only consistent to say “the meat industry is good for cows“ if you also say “the cannibalism industry is good for humans”.

Not that I’m doing a great job of being a morally consistent person myself, as I’m only vegetarian, and dairy is also really bad for bovine welfare, what with the forced pregnancies and slaughtered newborn calves.

[0] for lack of a better term — I know some people regard “person” as a synonym for “human”, but “self aware” and “sentient” are just as bad.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#72

Post by ben_w »

Noos wrote: post #58
username90 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see wh…

Yeah, the main poster doesn't get that the end result of veganism is the relegation of food species to very expensive, very impractical pets that many people won't see outside of youtube or in protected areas.

Why do you consider that outcome to be bad?

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#73

Post by bobajeff »

larnmar wrote: post #57
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more intelligent than someone with Downs Syndrome, but that doesn't mean their life is less valuable does it? Let me guess: they get a pass because they are human. That's what it comes down to really: things that are like me deserve rights and respect and things that aren't don't. That all humans happen to fit into the "like me" category is a relatively recent concept.

> I'm more intelligent than someone with Downs Syndrome, but that doesn't mean their life is less valuable does it? Doesn’t it? It’s something we don’t say, because it’s horrendously impolite, and I wouldn’t say it myself outside the context of this conversation, but yes, the life of an intelligent person is worth less than that of a person with Down’s syndrome. Don’t take my word for it though, look at revealed pref…

>It’s something we don’t say, because it’s horrendously impolite, and I wouldn’t say it myself outside the context of this conversation, but yes, the life of an intelligent person is worth less than that of a person with Down’s syndrome.

That is controversial but probably not in the way that you originally meant.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#74

Post by jancsika »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #22
username90 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I see it like this: Every time I pay for beef I create demand for more cows, thus I help fund little calves playing in the fields. Their lives might be a little shorter than usual, but I don't see wh…

Would you pay 2x so you could know they had fields and beach balls? Or 1x for industrial cow-cubicles? Be honest now..

I'll pay you 1000x for the patent on the system that allows me to verify at the supermarket that the meat I'm buying came from the beach ball cows

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#75

Post by hyperpallium »

WalterBright wrote: post #63
hyperpallium wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some pressure for life to develop different types of intelligence based on their biology and environment. I always wonder what was the pressure for humans to develop recursive language, and the cultural explosion about 70,000 years ago. And in the millions of years before that, the pressure to rapidly dwvelop larger brains. Other animals didn't seem to do that (though, we probanly haven't tracked the development of…

The pressure may have been having hands. It's amazing all the things we can do with our hands.

Interesting. Could have opened possibilies for intelligence to have utility. BTW parrots are quite dextrous with their feet and tongue.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#76

Post by WalterBright »

hyperpallium wrote: post #75
WalterBright wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pressure may have been having hands. It's amazing all the things we can do with our hands.

Interesting. Could have opened possibilies for intelligence to have utility. BTW parrots are quite dextrous with their feet and tongue.

Unfortunately for parrots, they cannot evolve larger brains without giving up flying. I suspect that birds in general have very optimized brains because of the weight constraints.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#77

Post by l1g2d5 »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #6

When I worked in Central Illinois recently, the home my wife and I rented bordered a field where young cows were raised. The small cows seemed to play some sort of game, running around each other like run after the leader. We thought they were playing. Later my wife found stuff on the web about cows being given beach balls to play with and with each other. Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environment…

> Uncomfortable truth for people who selfishly help environmentally destroy our planet with their meat addictions? I would say yes.

The best diet for the environment is the hunter gatherer diet. The second best diet for the environment is the omnivore diet. The worst diet for the environment is the vegan diet.

People like you need to go learn what farming is. An inuit in alaska can eat a environmentally friendly hunter gather diet ( mostly meat ). An inuit cannot have an environmentally friendly vegan diet. Nowhere on earth can you have a environmentally friendly vegan diet. A vegan diet requires globalism.

I swear veganism is the new anti-vaxx movement and it needs to be countered before it harms more people.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#78

Post by hyperpallium »

WalterBright wrote: post #76
hyperpallium wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Could have opened possibilies for intelligence to have utility. BTW parrots are quite dextrous with their feet and tongue.

Unfortunately for parrots, they cannot evolve larger brains without giving up flying. I suspect that birds in general have very optimized brains because of the weight constraints.

Though flightlessness is an option: emu, penguin, dodo, even a parrot (New Zealand Kakapo).

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#79

Post by lostmsu »

dang wrote: post #59
lostmsu wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are sentient, alright. But quite dumb. So we grow and eat them.

Please keep this sort of flamebait off this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Sorry for taking your time as a moderator, but given that quite a few top level comments and the parent one for mine imply plays around morale by basically any person eating meat, I felt that point of view was underrepresented.

By no means this was also a personal attack against anyone having enought intelligence to read it.

Re: Giant tortoises show surprising cognitive powers

#80

Post by lostmsu »

e2le wrote: post #39
username90 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.

I'm not sure it matters if whether James was there or not so long as the Baboon was capable of performing the tasks without instruction from James which multiple sources appear to imply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthf...

I think this is a pretty generous interpretation given how old and random the sources are.
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