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Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

latimes.com

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Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have a PhD in computer science but I cannot understand long division I think you're trolling us a little: you could sit down with pencil and paper and think about how it must work and 20 minutes later you'd understand it, surely.

I have no intuitive understanding or mental model of the algorithm. I could follow the instructions if they’re written in front of me but I have never managed to understand why they work or to memorise them. I have a similar mental block for standard deviation - I always seem to have another ‘but why?’ question that eventually people answer with ‘because!’ and then we’ve both given up.

GP must be talking about the shortcut procedure to do it that is taught in schools.

also maybe they are specific about they way they do long division in the US? it was a surprise to me in college too and i have a french background. it's not how the french system does long division...

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#262
post #2

I still don't know why long-division works. I don't think I even remember how to do it as an adult. I've always had a very intuitive grasp of math, which meant I excelled at solving things in my head but struggled with (and resented) having to show my work in the arbitrary algorithms we were taught. I understand division despite my education. They really should try to come up with algorithms that are more intuitively…

I think one reason why it doesn't make sense to a lot of people is that when doing long division, it is taught with notational shortcuts that obscure what the student is really doing.

Eg, say you are dividing 76543 by 5. The normal procedure is to say something like:

- 5 goes into 7 once. The first quotient digit is 1.

- 1 times 5 is 5, write that under the 7, and draw a short line under the five

- 7 minus 5 is 2; write that under the line you just drew

- the next digit is 6, so write that next to the 2 you just drew, ie, 26

- 5 goes into 26 five times; put that up in the quotient, etc

That minimizing the writing, but it hides what is really happening.

Really what is going on is this. How many times can you subtract 5 from 76543? One procedure would be to subtract five over and over until the remainder is less than five. The number of times you subtracted is the quotient. But in this example you'd have to subtract more than 15000 times. Instead of subtracting 5 at a time and incrementing a count, it would be faster to subtract 50 at a time and increment your quotient by 10 until the result is less than 50, and then switch to subtracting by 5s and incrementing by 1 as before. If you can see why that works, then you realize it would be even faster to subtract by 500 at a time and increment by 100, then switch to subtracting 50 at a time and increment by 10, then subtract 5 at a time and increment by 1. Etc.

So rather than minimizing the amount of digit copying, it would be better at first to write everything out. In this particular case:

- write the dividend: 76543

- remove groups of 50000. we can see we can subtract 50000 from this once; the leading digit of the quotient is 1

- write 50000 (150000) under the 76543

- subtract, writing 26543 (this is the current remainder)

- remove groups of 5000. now we see we can subtract 25000 from this, so the next digit of the quotient is 5.

- write 25000 (55000) under the 26543

- subtract, writing 1543 (current remainder)

- remove groups of 500. 500 goes into that 3 times, so the next digit of the quotient is 3

- write 1500 (3500) under 1543

- subtract, writing 43 (current remainder)

- remove groups of 50. it is larger than the current remainder, so the next digit of the quotient is 0.

- remove groups of 5. 5 goes into 43 eight times, so the next quotient digit is 8

- write 40 (85) under the 43

- subtract. the final remainder is 3.

The sequence of quotient digits was 15308.

The standard way long division is taught, the child skips writing down all the digits of the remainder and it is confusing as to why this all works.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#264
The author of this article is a researcher in cognitive psychology specializing in education. He wrote a pop-sci book detailing how cognitive science explains what's wrong with school, and it's very much worth a read if you're at all interested in the topic. Link is https://www.amazon.com/Why-Dont-Students-Like-School/dp/0470....

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#265
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment surprised me, as I have a BS in math and Laplace transforms were not something I was required to learn for the degree (although I had the option to take courses as electives that covered them). My university offers a math degree intended for those who want to go into teaching that doesn't get any hairier than Number Theory for required courses.

Your school had a special fake Math degree for aspirant teachers? What was it called, Math for Educators? Was there any indication on the transcript or diploma that it wasn’t a real Math degree?

Yes my college had a math for educators degree. https://www.bsu.edu/academics/collegesanddepartments/math/ac... I was a math education minor and I had to take 9 classes (3 credit hours each) including 2 on teaching math. It didn't seem very much like a "fake math degree" to me.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#266

For over a decade, I have run a successful tutoring center focused on math and science for elementary school students in a developing country. Our students won numerous awards both at the national and international levels. We usually employ teachers with degrees in math or science, or sometimes engineering. Occasionally for early elementary levels (grades 1-3), some teachers have a degree in another discipline. Regar…

For those curious, below are some kinds of primary math questions we model after to test teacher applicants. In my experience, many kids are much more enthusiastic about this kind of "challenging" problems than the drills in many standard textbooks, as long as the problems are chosen to match their level. They definitely learn a lot more as well. Note that although they do require a little arithmetic to solve, the ch…

72?

99999785960?

199?

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#267
I struggled with maths as a kid, but gained a much better grasp as an adult, when I had to use it for practical applications.

I really think the abstract nature of the way maths is taught (at least in the UK) is a big problem that holds people back - kids don't understand the point of the more complex stuff.

I recall asking my secondary school maths teacher what the point of learning about some concept was (logarithmic equations, I think), what practical applications it had - he couldn't answer that.

If I'd understood how such concepts could be used in the real world for interesting things, I'm certain I and others in the class would have been better able to "get it", and would certainly been more enthused.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#268
post #99
post #22

My ex taught grade 6 geography. Is a principal now. Thought the seasons were due to earth tilting back and forth. Didn't get that the tilt was the same, but the position around the sun was different

Are you saying that you believe that tilt is not a factor for seasons, and that it doesn't change between seasons...? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season#Axial_tilt

I think what they are saying is that framing the answer to the question, “What causes the seasons the change?” in terms of “tilt” conveys a misunderstanding of how the seasons work.

Yes, the earth is tilted on its axis. Yes, this tilt affects how much energy is absorbed (seasons). No, the seasons do not change because of the tilt of the earth.

The tilt of the earth does not change. The seasons change because the earth is rotating around the sun. That is, on one side of the sun the northern hemisphere experiences summer and on the other side, winter. It _is_ our orbit that causes seasons to _change_. Said another way, if the earth stopped orbiting seasons would stop changing.

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#269
post #187
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if teaching paid as well as software development. I’d love this personally. But the organizations that employ teachers do not make the same amount of money, per employee, as organizations that employ software engineers. Depending on your state, your property taxes would need to double or triple to make the math work out. To be clear: I’m not making a comparison of the value provided, just the accounted-for…

Its weird that education is payed for completely by property taxes in the US. The benefits of education go to more than just the (parents of) the recipients of that education. You also get weird incentives for people to reduce these taxes if they send their children to private schools.

> The benefits of education go to more than just the (parents of) the recipients of that education.

I think this is exactly the intent — get the whole county / district to pay, not just the parents, right? And these payments are usually compulsory regardless of whether you have children or send them to private school...

Re: Many elementary teachers don’t understand math, and it makes them anxious

#270

I struggled with maths as a kid, but gained a much better grasp as an adult, when I had to use it for practical applications. I really think the abstract nature of the way maths is taught (at least in the UK) is a big problem that holds people back - kids don't understand the point of the more complex stuff. I recall asking my secondary school maths teacher what the point of learning about some concept was (logarithm…

It's a double edged sword. I loved math because I liked physics, and calculus text books had plenty of physics examples.

Then I tutored people doing "business math" - calculus but using finance for all its applications. Most people struggled not because of the math but because of the difficulty in understanding the finance part. And it was hard for me to give help because I had to learn the financial aspects to help them with their HW.

If the application doesn't click with you, then you now have two problems.

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