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Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

economist.com

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Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#31

Post by droithomme »

dang wrote: post #25
justicezyx wrote: post #8

This is one of the biggest human right violations on earth, dwarfs anything that westerners are aware of, yet this is seldom getting much attentions... These people literally put their life into the modernization of the nation. Some of them died young, mostly from poor safety measures in their work environment. A lot of them suffer chronicle diseases that make their life a living torture. Yet even more of them wait t…

Would you please stop posting flamewar-style comments to HN, especially on China topics? We've already had to ask you several times. This is not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

His comment is very accurate and is not unreasonable. Would you dear dang please stop flaming and harassing people while defending vile totalitarian despotic states as you so commonly do? Not sure if it's your personal angle to defend evil, or if it's by the direction of your masters who are unusually cozy with regimes that violate human rights regularly. Both of you should be ashamed of this, but can't because both are clearly shameless as they have demonstrated for many many years of suppression and repression of truth and honest discussion of human rights abuses.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#32

Post by droithomme »

coldtea wrote: post #20
justicezyx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The typical "history repeats itself, so we do not need to care about it"... Good luck with this, when the fate of human beings require unified effort.

> The typical "history repeats itself, so we do not need to care about it"... I'd like to think of it more as the typical: "Yeah, our country did those things back in the day to develop/get rich, but yours should not do them. History shouldn't repeat itself in your country's case, only my country should be allowed that privilege" Countries must pass through certain stages to develop. Countries that were once at stage…

> Countries must pass through certain stages to develop

The argument that human rights abuses, totalitarian thinking, and mass pollution is absolutely necessary to advance is absurd and damaging.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#33

Post by barry-cotter »

netsharc wrote: post #7
abledon wrote: post #6

when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are having a very hard time compared to their cushy western lifestyle.

Funny how slavery is pretty abstract for the western consumer nowadays, who don't see through several layers of capitalism of "best bang for your bucks". If the factory in China has to increase its minimum wage due to laws, well, "I want to build a phone factory, I want these shareholder-profit-maximizing conditions for the workers, any takers?" (Hah, even Amazon was doing this in the US with its whole HQ2 saga)

Working for money isn’t slavery. Slaves don’t get to tell their bosses to go to hell and go get another job. They don’t go home for Chinese New Year and never come back because they’ve finally saved enough money for a house or paid their sister’s way through university or heard that the money’s better in another city or factory.

Slaves are property. For all the many, many awful things that are wrong in China there is no slavery.

Minimum wage laws are not economically binding in less developed countries except sometimes for the professional managerial class. They sure as hell aren’t binding in Communist countries like China or Vietnam. You need a strong and powerful state to enforce minimum wage laws. If you can’t manage to vaccinate all the children in your country the laws may be on the books but they won’t be followed.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#34

Post by solidsnack9000 »

agumonkey wrote: post #13
abledon wrote: post #6

when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are having a very hard time compared to their cushy western lifestyle.

and then complain about not having local products but keep buying cheapest chinese made things

Most things you buy literally can’t be bought any other way. Fabric made in the US is not very common, for example — you generally have to buy clothes from defense department suppliers to get clothing made with it. None of them sell cardigans. Lots of flameproof jumpsuits, though.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#35

Post by coldtea »

droithomme wrote: post #32
coldtea wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The typical "history repeats itself, so we do not need to care about it"... I'd like to think of it more as the typical: "Yeah, our country did those things back in the day to develop/get rich, but yours should not do them. History shouldn't repeat itself in your country's case, only my country should be allowed that privilege" Countries must pass through certain stages to develop. Countries that were once at stage…

> Countries must pass through certain stages to develop The argument that human rights abuses, totalitarian thinking, and mass pollution is absolutely necessary to advance is absurd and damaging.

It's also an argument nobody here made.

Maybe you forgot what is discussed in this thread? The argument was about workers sacrificing their life for industrialisation, suffering through lack of safety, work dangers, etc, and then tossed aside as seniors. To quote:

"These people literally put their life into the modernization of the nation. Some of them died young, mostly from poor safety measures in their work environment. A lot of them suffer chronicle diseases that make their life a living torture. Yet even more of them wait to see the grim prospect of a miserable senior life. We are not even starting mentioning the tragic life of these events on their offsprings!*"

-- that is, nothing specific to totalitarianism.

Those things happened every time and for every country that developed from from a mostly agrarian society to an advanced industrial one, so there's nothing "absurd" about considering them as typical stages...

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#36

Post by abledon »

larnmar wrote: post #26
abledon wrote: post #6

when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are having a very hard time compared to their cushy western lifestyle.

And are the horrors of Chinese labour conditions supposed to make us feel better about the fact that all our stuff is getting made there? I’m confused by the structure of your comment.

no, the horrors should make my relatives stfu and stop complaining, because they are lucky they aren't on the wrong end of the coin flip.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#37

Post by ng12 »

abledon wrote: post #36
larnmar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And are the horrors of Chinese labour conditions supposed to make us feel better about the fact that all our stuff is getting made there? I’m confused by the structure of your comment.

no, the horrors should make my relatives stfu and stop complaining, because they are lucky they aren't on the wrong end of the coin flip.

Because globalism traded jobs that once supported American families for jobs that allow Chinese families to live in grinding poverty? I don't get it either.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#38

Post by cinquemb »

EliRivers wrote: post #21
tempguy9999 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP controls the markets. It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). But that's an aside, the point is that exploitative labour practices come about because of what @netsharc says. You've sidestepped his and my point. If it was you or your children in a sweatshop you mightn't be so gung-ho.

It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

> It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

As an example, interest rate fixing by central banks in DM countries is anathema to free markets and price discovery; yet ownership of production is privatized.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#39

Post by Blackthorn »

merpnderp wrote: post #14
tempguy9999 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see any reason to downvote this, I don't think it's at all wrong.

China's pivot from Marxism to Capitalism has brought more people out of abject poverty, in a miraculously short period, than any other change in history. It isn't perfect, but there's no other viable option.

No other viable option? I recall the Soviet Union's entrance into communism transformed them in a single generation from a backwards nation with serfs to a nation that won the space race, despite facing two wars, one of which involved a genocidal dictator intent on completely destroying them.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#40

Post by abledon »

ng12 wrote: post #37
abledon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, the horrors should make my relatives stfu and stop complaining, because they are lucky they aren't on the wrong end of the coin flip.

Because globalism traded jobs that once supported American families for jobs that allow Chinese families to live in grinding poverty? I don't get it either.

Time will march on no matter what, all I'm saying is that we should be thankful that during our finite lives, we have been blessed to live in the US where freedoms are still available to us. When people complain about products being made in another country... It is what it is... its globalism, its capitalism and thats where we are right now as the human race. It sucks but at least for some, who are lucky, who were born into prosperous nations, they get to enjoy comfy lifestyles compared to other unlucky ones who were born into poor circumstances. jesus lol, also see merp's comment
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