Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 48 posts

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#21

Post by EliRivers »

tempguy9999 wrote: post #19
merpnderp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's pivot from Marxism to Capitalism has brought more people out of abject poverty, in a miraculously short period, than any other change in history. It isn't perfect, but there's no other viable option.

The CCP controls the markets. It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). But that's an aside, the point is that exploitative labour practices come about because of what @netsharc says. You've sidestepped his and my point. If it was you or your children in a sweatshop you mightn't be so gung-ho.

It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points).

Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#24

Post by dang »

braindead_in wrote: post #9

This should not be a surprise: Chinese keep the labour costs down by cutting corners, of course. They are exploitative by nature. The CCP has betrayed the labour class. They should be called Chinese Capitalistic Party.

Please don't take HN threads further into political or nationalistic flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#25

Post by dang »

justicezyx wrote: post #8

This is one of the biggest human right violations on earth, dwarfs anything that westerners are aware of, yet this is seldom getting much attentions... These people literally put their life into the modernization of the nation. Some of them died young, mostly from poor safety measures in their work environment. A lot of them suffer chronicle diseases that make their life a living torture. Yet even more of them wait t…

Would you please stop posting flamewar-style comments to HN, especially on China topics? We've already had to ask you several times. This is not what this site is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#26

Post by larnmar »

abledon wrote: post #6

when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are having a very hard time compared to their cushy western lifestyle.

And are the horrors of Chinese labour conditions supposed to make us feel better about the fact that all our stuff is getting made there? I’m confused by the structure of your comment.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#27

Post by larnmar »

merpnderp wrote: post #14
tempguy9999 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see any reason to downvote this, I don't think it's at all wrong.

China's pivot from Marxism to Capitalism has brought more people out of abject poverty, in a miraculously short period, than any other change in history. It isn't perfect, but there's no other viable option.

But crediting the CCP for bringing people out of poverty is like thanking the guy who was drowning you for stopping drowning you.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#28

Post by larnmar »

EliRivers wrote: post #21
tempguy9999 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP controls the markets. It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). But that's an aside, the point is that exploitative labour practices come about because of what @netsharc says. You've sidestepped his and my point. If it was you or your children in a sweatshop you mightn't be so gung-ho.

It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

And this is why arguing about “capitalism” is pointless, there’s a bunch of incompatible definitions. You are using a definition closer to Marx’s, while the GP is using a definition closer to Rand’s. (Most people use a fizzier definition than either of these.)

Just let these definitional arguments go, they’re not interesting or valuable.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#29

Post by tempguy9999 »

larnmar wrote: post #28
EliRivers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.

And this is why arguing about “capitalism” is pointless, there’s a bunch of incompatible definitions. You are using a definition closer to Marx’s, while the GP is using a definition closer to Rand’s. (Most people use a fizzier definition than either of these.) Just let these definitional arguments go, they’re not interesting or valuable.

Let them go and you have no definitional basis on which to argue, and then how can you engage? I can't see any debate can be at all possible like that.

As a general principle agree your definitions before you lock horns and you'll start getting somewhere, if no further than agreeing to disagree.

Re: Migrants who made China an industrial giant face a grim retirement

#30

Post by FussyZeus »

agumonkey wrote: post #13
abledon wrote: post #6

when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are having a very hard time compared to their cushy western lifestyle.

and then complain about not having local products but keep buying cheapest chinese made things

With the ongoing depression of wages in the developed world, most people don't have the luxury to "shop ethically." Hell, in many product categories, buying local is just not an option at all.

For decades Capitalism has pushed manufacturing jobs overseas first and into the arms of robots second, and also robots overseas for double savings. In those same decades, more and more of the wealth has been concentrated in the super-rich, while the middle class has struggled to continue to exist in any meaningful way. Regular people are satiated with cheaper and cheaper products made in overseas markets, but there's still an overwhelming sense of "broke" permeating societies in the developed world.

Eventually the rich are going to have to be willing to let some of the money flow back into larger society, if for no other reason than there will be no more consumers for even their cheapest of goods. This problem goes double as China continues it's rapid industrialization, and begins ascending itself to where it's labor is no longer cheap enough, and capitalism now turns its gaze to even less developed countries for cheap manufacturing. But, this activity itself is what causes industrialization and the rise in cost of labor; and there are a finite number of countries.

As usual though no capitalists are thinking in long term goals. Just get the money now, the most you can now, right now, before the whole thing goes toppling over.

Post reply on HN