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Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

reuters.com

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Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#41

Post by larnmar »

latch wrote: post #22
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy? Yes. In democracy, the public are the arbiters of truth. Particularly political truth. Free speech doesn’t mean consequence-free speech. Cooling-down periods, mandatory preservation and disclosure requirements, et cetera are both prudent and commonplace. Court-supervised anti-fraud statute, which punishes for the harm done by the lie, not the spe…

Isn't there a litany of examples where the government has the power to decide and enforce truthfulness? Stuff like health claims and protected designation of origin.

Yes. While there’s arguments to be made against those laws, it seems to be relatively harmless to allow the government to be the arbiter of truth in a few limited situations where the truth is fairly easy to ascertain.

(What’s that you say? The truth of claims about the medical efficacy of drugs are actually hard to ascertain? That’s true, but you’ll note that the standard of truth required by law is easy to ascertain — the question is not whether your drug cures cancer but whether you’ve gone through a specific FDA-approved process to test whether it does, and passed.)

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#42

Post by guywithahat »

riffic wrote: post #37

Journalists need to look at alternative platforms, such as those under the control of their own organization. The Fediverse is a good place to be.

I second this, I’ve been using it more and I really enjoy it. The only thing I would recommend people avoid is the original mastodon instance, since to combat losing market share they’ve been banning instances which sort of defeats the point of the fediverse. But gab and qoto.org are both good imo. You sort of get the close community of a smaller social network but since there’s a large programmer population they tend to build out really robust bot networks too.

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#43

Post by markdown »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #8
trickstra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy?

> Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy? Yes. In democracy, the public are the arbiters of truth. Particularly political truth. Free speech doesn’t mean consequence-free speech. Cooling-down periods, mandatory preservation and disclosure requirements, et cetera are both prudent and commonplace. Court-supervised anti-fraud statute, which punishes for the harm done by the lie, not the spe…

> Court-supervised anti-fraud statute, which punishes for the harm done by the lie, not the speech itself, also helps.

Except the courts... in fact nobody, has any power to punish anyone for most of the fake news spread on Facebook in my country since it's all posted by anonymously controlled pages.

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#44

Post by kabdib »

trickstra wrote: post #5
mochialex wrote: post #3

This is how fake democracy works.

Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy?

The moment that lies are forbidden is the moment that someone needs to decide the difference between truth and falsehood.

Is that a decree by the state? The result of an expensive and protracted legal process? Do we put it to a vote? Is there a Committee of Truth? A permit system? Digital signatures on all postings, with co-signees and chains of responsibility? Or do we just wind up with he usual weak and unevenly enforced rules, subject to bribery and political influence?

Forbidding speech is a slippery and precipitous slope. A government that aims to protect its people from lies is well on the road to despotism.

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#45

Post by markdown »

throwaway864231 wrote: post #14
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy? Yes. In democracy, the public are the arbiters of truth. Particularly political truth. Free speech doesn’t mean consequence-free speech. Cooling-down periods, mandatory preservation and disclosure requirements, et cetera are both prudent and commonplace. Court-supervised anti-fraud statute, which punishes for the harm done by the lie, not the spe…

Definitely the government shouldn’t be able to stop criticisms, but for outright lies, wouldn’t libel or slander laws apply?

That would require knowing you made the post, and since most fake news is generated by anon FB pages, who do you sue?

The answer is nobody. You have no recourse unless you're in the US or one of the few other states that Facebook will listen to.

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#47

Post by robomartin »

I have a lateral question about Singapore. Everything I have read about the country says that it is one of the best in the world for business and, in particular, startups. Yet some of the commentary here leads me to believe there's a dark side to the reality of this nation.

Anyone with first hand knowledge care to comment on this?

I am puzzled because it so happens we might have to do some business in Singapore and a friend was telling me about the business/startup environment. I did a bunch of research and found articles with nothing but praise. Is the truth more nuanced than this?

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#48

Post by draw_down »

robomartin wrote: post #47

I have a lateral question about Singapore. Everything I have read about the country says that it is one of the best in the world for business and, in particular, startups. Yet some of the commentary here leads me to believe there's a dark side to the reality of this nation. Anyone with first hand knowledge care to comment on this? I am puzzled because it so happens we might have to do some business in Singapore and a…

Perhaps suppressing speech and being business friendly are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps.

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#49

Post by eej2ya1K »

robomartin wrote: post #47

I have a lateral question about Singapore. Everything I have read about the country says that it is one of the best in the world for business and, in particular, startups. Yet some of the commentary here leads me to believe there's a dark side to the reality of this nation. Anyone with first hand knowledge care to comment on this? I am puzzled because it so happens we might have to do some business in Singapore and a…

Of course there's a dark side, but the truth is that a lack of real democracy, fair elections, human rights etc. just isn't going to matter to your average startup. In fact, it's not going to matter to the average person, either.

Re: Singapore tells Facebook to correct post under new fake news law

#50

Post by trickstra »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #8
trickstra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy?

> Should people be allowed to say and write lies in a "real" democracy? Yes. In democracy, the public are the arbiters of truth. Particularly political truth. Free speech doesn’t mean consequence-free speech. Cooling-down periods, mandatory preservation and disclosure requirements, et cetera are both prudent and commonplace. Court-supervised anti-fraud statute, which punishes for the harm done by the lie, not the spe…

One of the consequences might be that if you say a lie about someone else, they will sue you for libel. And in an ideal world, the lie would be discovered and you'd lose that suit. So asking a user on facebook to remove a lie, then asking facebook to remove that lie, sounds like a fair thing to do in a "real" democracy.

> Governments should not have the power to silence their critics

I agree completely, but we are talking about the case when they are trying to silence a lie. That's different than critics.

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